Jack Daw Question

[Eisenhorn]

If Jack flips a black joker and your opponent gains control of him who makes his defense flips and or discards card to keep him alive. Also if he is killed while in under the control of your opponent how do the victory points work out in the end? Thanks

[Mach_5]

Good questions!

I'd also like to know if it's possible for the opposing master to (1)Drain Souls on him while he is temporarily under their control (seems like it works that way to me...).

[Fading Memory]

As soon as you flip the Black Joker, at the end of JD's activation, you opponent gain controls of him and must use him next. And at the end of that activation you get control back for JD. He does not enter your opponents activation rotation. So there is no Drain Souls possibility and it will not be very often that you to hit JD under your opponents control. You would need something like Riposte, Faster'n You, or something like that.

[Mach_5]

Is his card different to the rules in the book? I don't have the card, but the book says control doesn't go back to the original player until the end close phase.

[Q'iq'el]

Almost all of these questions are answered on the page 13 of the Rules Manual, under "Controling Models".

As is, the Jack Daw does not change the crew, just the controller and becomes "friendly" to his new crew. Limits on summoning abilities, related to being controlled by the opposing crew, do not apply to Jack Daw.

The rules also determine the controlling player is the one who discards the cards and soulstones used by the model.

However, unlike with Obey and such, there is no limit on killing the model in one way or another, and since the model remains friendly, I'd suggest as follow:

1. You probably can't get points for killing Jack Daw in Slaughter, when he is under your own control (as he is friendly then).

2. You quite probably can use Drain Soul on him (with all the associated Wp hits). The only condition for this is the model is friendly, and Jack Daw is friendly.

3. If there is an option not to discard the cards to keep Jack Daw alive, the controller definitely can let him die... but when it is required, there is no other choice but to discard them (depending on where we deal with Undying or other such abilities).

4. As far as Kill Scheme goes, I think if he dies under the opponent control, the opponent still gets a VP at the end of the game. The reason is Jack Daw doesn't change crews, just the controller. On the other hand the rules speak about opponent and controlling crew - I assume it means "default" state - I could see someone claim he counts as controlled by his last controller and the VP from Kill Switch reverse at the end of the game (then it would be in your interest to keep opponent's Jack Daw alive).

5. As far as Slaughter goes, he is an enemy model to his own crew when he switches sides (friendly to the controller), so if you kill your own Jack Daw, while he is controlled by the opponent, you get the SS cost in points. The opponent who controls Jack Daw would get nothing if he kills him. Again, the reason for that is that Slaughter looks only at the friendly/enemy status and does not check for the crew affiliation of the model.

That's may take on it.

---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------

Is his card different to the rules in the book? I don't have the card, but the book says control doesn't go back to the original player until the end close phase.

It is the end close phase. And interestingly enough, how does it play if he dies? He can no longer resolve the effect and Kill Scheme speaks about controlling crew and the opponent crew - in other words, when the controllers and opponents are reversed on the moment of death does it remain so for the Kill Scheme purpose?

---------- Post added at 03:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------

Thinking more about point 5... this can be quite a dastardly trick if you lack points in a Slaughter Strategy - flip the Black Joker (obviously you need to keep it in your Control Hand) and proceed to kill your own Jack Daw. If you succeed you get 9~10SS to catch up with the opponent while denying him these very points at the same time. Hmm.

[Eisenhorn]

Alright then I think we play it correctly then. (with him dying that is) Jack flipped a Black Joker while damaging a model with suppressed memories. The Colette player then proceeded to walk jack into a corner, flick him with magicians duel once and kill him off... Serves him right for changing sides. Maybe next time he will realize the grass isnt always greener on the other side.

Im interested to hear how the VP issue pans out.

[marshimartian]

Concerning the ability that allows you to discard to stop Jack from dying, I believe it was once pointed out to me that it says "the crew that hired this model..." So even in your opponents control, it remains your choice to keep him alive.

For kill scheme, we've always played that your opponent gets no points for killing him, however, if you kill him yourself, you get the point. But then 8-9SS for 1VP isn't always worth it

[Ozz]

Yes, according to the rising powers book, Undying is controlled by the model who hired him, so your opponent can not steal him and kill him to easily, just drain your hand with hitting him lots before the end of the turn.

[Fading Memory]

As soon as you flip the Black Joker, at the end of JD's activation, you opponent gain controls of him and must use him next. And at the end of that activation you get control back for JD. He does not enter your opponents activation rotation. So there is no Drain Souls possibility and it will not be very often that you to hit JD under your opponents control. You would need something like Riposte, Faster'n You, or something like that.

Apparently I need to read the whole rule before I decide to comment on a topic.:facepalm: