Killjoy

[Spiku]

Csonti, that is not a correction. I was asking a very specific question; 3 actions and on 1st turn.

I am fully aware of his more usual uses; counter drop model when you've had time to stack your hand.

[Csonti]

Csonti, that is not a correction. I was asking a very specific question; 3 actions and on 1st turn.

Problem is that you drag the situation out of game context. That's why I put the correction or clarification. Will 3 actions yield enough payback to put Killjoy in your opponent DZ in turn 1? is a wrong (or non-existing) question.

Counting in the possibility of winning the 2nd turn's initiative and the chance that your opponent can't kill it in his or her first action even if you lose the initiative flip transforms your question like this: Will 4,5+ actions yield enough payback to put Killjoy in your opponent DZ in turn 1? That is 3 in turn one, plus 3 with a 50% chance in turn two (not counting in cards in Hand and SS use) plus some more for suviving after a lost initiative.

[Spiku]

No, it is a very specific question. 3 actions, no more, no less; no inbuilt onslaught, no concern for the following turn. I am looking at, very specifically, how people feel he will return with just what I have set up.

In the same way I didn't care to explain HOW I did it, I am asking in isolation. You may think that I want to know how he will fare with variables included, but I dont. I am aware that I can flip masks, that I might have a strong hand, that I could win iniatiatve to get further actions, that my opponent might not be able to respond with just one activation.

Just like I am aware they might not be in the deployment zone.

All I'm interested is in how people feel about the specific scenario I have raised. That you have a problem with it does not matter. That is my question.

And in any regard, it is still 3 base actions, it just happens that the attacks have a mask trigger for extra attacks. To correct on page 3 is suggesting that we weren't aware of it, despite discussing it already. Your addition is belated, and unneeded.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Spiku

[Csonti]

Nevermind.

[CN the Logos]

Onslaught doesn't give extra actions anyway. It's just another Strike against the same target, which is performed immediately after the initial strike deals damage. Given a slightly better than ten percent chance that any given card will be an eight or higher of Masks and the fact that you start with six cards in your hand assuming no Arcane Reservoir or similar effect (remember kids, Primordial Magic is your friend!), it's probable that at least one of those three strikes will be an Onslaught.

In any case, asking what the returns on a single first turn activation of Killjoy are is meaningless when we don't have context. It (He? She? I don't think the book says, and while priming the model I noticed it looked like s/he'd been mutilated in that region... which I suppose justifies the whole "hunter of hir own kind" thing) is a brute, but utilizing it still requires strategy and tactics, especially given the fact that it's likely to represent over 1/3 of your available soulstones for hiring. If your opponent is running, say, gremlins and Killjoy manages to kill three Bayou Gremlins EXTRA DEAD before getting annihilated by the counterattack, that doesn't benefit you any more than using other, cheaper models to kill those gremlins (because as far as I know, there's no direct benefit from overkill in Malifaux, aside from making it harder for soulstone users to save themselves).

On the other hand, if the opposing crew consists of a moderate to large number of models that focus more on utility or spellcasting than pure offense, those same three AP could take out a couple of models that were vital to that crew's function and swing the game in your favor even if Killjoy bites it as soon as your opponent activates. On the other other hand, if the opposing crew consists of a small number of high cost models, Killjoy might not be able to destroy multiple models in one activation, but it can focus on one enemy model at a time, and your opponent will have to devote a larger proportion of his force to a counterattack. Depending on the high cost models in question, they may not be much more likely to kill Killjoy than a similar number of lower cost models.

So, in this hypothetical scenario, what are we up against?

[Cthulhurising]

Would it be fair to answer your hypothetical question as this,

If your careful with where he goes, what he goes up against and who you're fighting, then yes. But like everything in Malifaux it depends on what or who they have, as opposed to what or who you have.

Toss him up against pointless models like CN pointed out and no, Toss him up against weak but important models (Models that aren't great now, but can be or that are important to the crew, like Terror Tots) Or objective grabbers or even focusing down a larger scarier model or a combination and you're fine.

Everything in Malifaux depends on the scenario and schemes and what you're opponent has. Just cause Killjoy looks kinda like this games version of Dr. Mundo, doesn't mean he's excluded from it.

Side note- Now I want a Dr. Mundo miniature... dangit! ><

[Spiku]

Killjoy is nothing like Dr Mundo; he has no slow with percentage damage return, his aoe is from taking damage, no excessive regeneration that isn't from killing something... madness! MADNESS!

CN's comments are, as you rightly identify, pointless.

However, are you specifically saying that you feel he is likely to illicit enough of an impact to justify the cost for that specific use 1st turn placement, provided you have any remote competence (removing the objective grabber/key support mode/Som'er's only 3 Bayou's); or that it is entirely immaterial due to the random factors.

Edit: Given this thread doesn't have the content of previous discussions; I specifically don't feel that Killjoy can impact a master enough in this scenario, and I still act under the "you don't always get what you want" hand

[Guy in Suit]

The threat of Killjoy-to-the-face is as powerful as Killjoy himself. If you pop him out on turn 1, you are almost always doing it wrong.

Just take him with a pack of Necropunks and then laugh at youropponent when the punks cap objectives like no tomorrow because your opponent is too scared to hit them late in the activation order.

[Spiku]

Certainly. There has been no question that he is not more effectively used as the counter drop, and this has already been mentioned in the thread.

How come necropunks over night terrors? Though sadly I do not play ressers; I am hiring at base cost.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Necropunks are slow to die. Night Terrors are only Hard to kill. You kill a necropunk and it takes its slow to die action to pop out killjoy. Killjoy then kills you.

[Spiku]

Of course~

Necros hard to wound as well as slow to die?

[Kadeton]

Of course~

Necros hard to wound as well as slow to die?

Hard to Kill but not Hard to Wound.

[Spiku]

Minimum 2 actions to kill, and slow to die. That's quite fun

[CN the Logos]

CN's comments are, as you rightly identify, pointless.

I don't think he actually said that. Unless that was an attempt at snark, in which case, I am irritated but will now clarify in a manner less likely to get me a talking to from the mods. This isn't chess, where you know going in what the other player is going to have available, what the terrain is going to be (no such thing in chess) what the objective is going to be for every game, etc... All of that changes from game to game. While there are certain pieces that are generally subpar or above average for their cost, most models have a particular niche they're supposed to fill, and if that niche isn't there, they're not good. If it is there, they're worth their points. If filling that niche is what that entire game revolves around, they may be worth more than you pay for them.

Killjoy's entire purpose is killing things. It takes joy in killing things (your PROTIP for playing the model is right there in the name. Convenient, right?). If you can do enough damage to your opponent by killing things in the first turn to not mind Killjoy dying right after it does that (or if you can be reasonably sure that Killjoy will survive to get more useful activations, but for the purposes of this discussion we're assuming definite death after the first turn), then yes, the first turn Killjoy bomb is worth it. If you can't do that, then it isn't worth it. Since the amount of damage Killjoy will be able to do will vary by by strategies, schemes, opposing crew, simply asking "is 3AP with Killjoy on the first turn worth him dying right afterwards?" doesn't give enough context for a definitive answer.

Generally speaking, most skilled players who see both Killjoy and the means for a first turn Killjoy delivery are going to try to place their critical models far enough apart to keep Killjoy from murdering them all in one activation, so unless it can do enough damage to survive, it's probably better to wait a bit and use its potential appearance as a threat. But the situation is going to vary enough so that I wouldn't bet anything I couldn't live without on that being the case.

Edit: Given this thread doesn't have the content of previous discussions; I specifically don't feel that Killjoy can impact a master enough in this scenario, and I still act under the "you don't always get what you want" hand

No, you don't always get what you want. But unless Random Number God is a real entity who is actually out to get you, your chances of an opening hand full of bad cards and one full of good cards are the same. Assuming a poor hand is no more realistic than assuming an excellent one. On average, you'll have as least one card capable of triggering Onslaught against a Minion without Use Soulstone.

Edited March 7, 2012 by CN the Logos

[Spiku]

I was writing a response and it went on a bit, and I realise that it's just going to end up being circular. Thank you for your contribution CN, but I have nothing to say to you on the topic.

Edit: and thank you for the edit to your post

[Cthulhurising]

Lol, I actually meant more the model, and the giant cleaver. You could almost count his drag as a slow... (Its more them "walking" to him then the other way around... but....)

But I still stand firm on my choice. They're both big, have giant cleavers and probably a really basic sense of intelligence. And in my case, purple.

(Out of the malifaux mini's. I do realize a large, purple guy with a cleaver is moderately common, but in Malifaux's world, he's it.)

[Spiku]

He's more like Volibear crossed with Blitzcrank ;3

[Cthulhurising]

True dat! but... Mundo....

So that leaves us with Volitank or Blitzbear?

Wish I was better sculpting >.<