What do I need to use the Dreamer

[birdbath]

Hi all, I have just got into Malifaux and money is a bit tight for me at the moment so I was wondering if I need the rising powers book to play the dreamer crew?

Can I use all the rules on the cards and have the downloadable PDF off the wyrd website and still play the crew to full effect?

Thanks in advance,

BB

[CN the Logos]

All the abilities of the models that aren't defined in that PDF will be on the cards. You should probably invest in a hard copy of the rules though, unless your opponent is forgiving enough to allow laptops at the table.

Keep in mind, however (we've had like, four threads about it in the past week, but I feel compelled to warn you just in case you missed them) that while Malifaux is for the most part a fairly balanced game and the differences in power between the various masters generally aren't massive enough to be insurmountable, the game designers were apparently on some bad acid when they made the Dreamer. His plethora of abilities means he's hard for new players to pick up, but once you figure out what his powers mean in combination with his totems, he can move all the way across the board instantly, hit your opponent with Chompy's ten-inch claws, and return to his starting position before your opponent can do anything at all. None of the other masters in the game have anything quite like that (some can move as far forward, but are stuck there once they arrive, meaning they can actually be counterattacked).

This means that if the Dreamer's your only master, you have to either limit yourself intentionally, or you'll be slaughtering anyone who didn't pick one of the masters that can actually give him a run for his money. No one likes playing against an opponent that doesn't even let them counterattack. Or, if you don't know how to use him, you'll be losing a lot yourself. None of the above situations are very fun, in my personal opinion.

If I were you, I'd start playing with either Lilith or Zoraida. Both are strong masters, much easier to learn the rules with, and they share a good number of minions with the Dreamer, meaning that if your local gaming place is competitive enough, you can buy the Dreamer and Lord Chompy Bits once you've got the game down and have everything you need to use them.

If you're still wanting to start with the Dreamer despite (or because of) this, grab his boxset, the Daydreams, a heavy hitting Nightmare for killing things (the Twins are good), maybe something small and fast to grab objectives, and you're golden. The cards have all the rules, tactics can be found by going to the Malifaux wiki or bugging the good people here. Good luck and godspeed.

[Serigala]

What do I need to use the Dreamer?

A mean streak and very little imagination (?)

[Joel]

I'm beginning to take issue with all the dreamer hate.

If the person likes the dreamer fluff and models, they should play him. As for it causing nothing but negative play experiences....that's a load of garbage! If you simply play with the right attitude (the patented "don't be a dick" approach) then your opponent will be in the game and has every chance of winning. You'll certainly both have fun.

Using the strategies and schemes can help with this a lot if you can't keep yourself honest though. After all while chompy might be great at killing stuff, killing stuff might not win you the game.

Just last night I played against the vikis.

Opponent: strategy = slaughter, scheme = kill protege (coppelius) announced, +2 stones

Me: strategy = turf war, schemes = bodyguard (dreamer) announced, frame for murder (coppelius)

Game went down to the wire. He killed coppelius with a viktoria (2,1 to him) when i unburied him in a position where she could get him. A teddy who was slashed to ribbons before he could activate, a daydream who got splatted into a puddle of ectoplasmic goo by lady hammerstrike's relic hammer, and I also lost both stitched togethers. He also got a nasty blow in on the dreamer that I got lucky to survive (flipped red joker for damage prevention).

I won, but it was far from the one-sided affair that I keep hearing about on the forums.

[karavak]

If the person likes the dreamer fluff and models, they should play him. As for it causing nothing but negative play experiences....that's a load of garbage! If you simply play with the right attitude (the patented "don't be a dick" approach) then your opponent will be in the game and has every chance of winning. You'll certainly both have fun.

I agree with both statements. I started Malifaux by picking up Pandora, but really jumped in when I started reading the Dreamer. I just don't want to take him for tournaments since I'm at the point that if I see a lot of dreamer/pandora crews I'd rather go find some more variety. But I still keep him in my friendly game rotations.

But back on topic:

I don't think you need Rising Powers to play the Dreamer if you have the cards. You will need the Rules Manual for sure to understand the rules that are not explained in detail.

[karn987]

I'm beginning to take issue with all the dreamer hate.

If the person likes the dreamer fluff and models, they should play him. As for it causing nothing but negative play experiences....that's a load of garbage! If you simply play with the right attitude (the patented "don't be a dick" approach) then your opponent will be in the game and has every chance of winning. You'll certainly both have fun.

Seconded (or thirded in this case) on all of this.

I (like Karavak) began Malifaux by picking up Pandora before I even knew the rules to the game. I had bought the crew based on the look and theme of them, evil babies, Pandora and her Woes... it was incredibly cool to me. I found out a few months into the game that she was basically a monster and as I polished my skills with her I found the ways to really break her. But even then, my opponent and I can have fun because I don't play like a dick. Its not about cheating people by not using their fullest extent, its about having fun. The same goes with the Dreamer. I grabbed him as soon as he came out, and absolutely love every aspect of him and his crew. I've got Nightmare LCB and his crew all done up and have this whole theme to them that I deeply enjoy.

Yes you can play like a dick and a douchebag with him, but you don't have to. And no, it's not cheating people or "playing down"... its about playing so both people have fun. If someone calls me out and wants me to play to the fullest extent of my crews, fine. I'll take of the gloves and give it every trick I know and hopefully, that is the fun they were looking for.

But all this Dreamer hate and grief is just getting so far out of hand. His mechanics are not so broken that he can't be played on a more even level. Again, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I have 10 times more respect for the Dreamer player who goes into the game playing with honor and integrity then the one who goes in simply to win and crush their opponent. It's really that simple, "Don't be a Dick"

Back on Topic:

Karavak is correct, you don't need Rising Powers to play the Dreamer and your better off skipping the book unless you want it for the fluff. The stats in it are changed in many cases from what the cards say now. If your curious about what a model does, check out the Malifaux Wiki, linked in my signature. That will give you all the info you need on each model

As to the original question. You can use the Download Rules Manual and the stat cards and play the game just fine. But buy the Rules manual, its $15 and has all the useful pictures, examples etc and your showing your support for the game and company.

Start with his Box Set and then expand from there. Lilitu and Lelu are a powerful set of models to add and Teddy's are solid, fun, and well... thematically awesome, so you can't go wrong with 1 or 2 of him. But a MUST buy is a set of Day Dreams to go along with the Box set, they are super critical to him and basically he doesn't function without them.

So basically, play what you think will be fun. Don't play like a dick and a douchebag, you should be fine. You will have fun and your opponents will have fun.

Edited February 14, 2012 by karn987

[Fenrir]

If the person likes the dreamer fluff and models, they should play him.

This.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree that if you like the models then you should feel free to play him. However I agree with CN the Logos' comments because if you are new to starting the game and are asking the wider community of their assistance or advice on playing you should be aware of what the general community's impression of the Dreamer is. And currently that general opinion is that The Dreamer is OP. The fact that you even need to mention the fact that you don't have to play the Dreamer to his full abilities definitely hints at this fact. No one I've ever heard says, "You know you don't have to play McMorning to his fullest abilities." And I would also disagree with the assertion that if you don't take advantage of what the Dreamer can do that you are not "playing down", you are. Don't be a Dick in my opinion is more to do with personal attitude while playing the game. Play the Dreamer the best way you can, but don't be a jerk about it.

Back on Topic:

I would personally encourage the OP to play the Dreamer if those are the models that very much interest him. In order to play the Dreamer competitively you will need:

The Dreamer and Lord Chompy Bits.

A Pack of Daydreams

At least 2 Stitched Together, and you will want three eventually for Slaughter to deny your opponent points.

At least one set of the Twins, Lelu and Lilitu.

At some point you will also want some Night Terrors to be cheap objective runners.

You'll eventually want the Rules Manuel, but to just playing with the PDF online to start definitely works.

[nilus]

I'm beginning to take issue with all the dreamer hate.

+1

Like I said before. Play what you like. Especially if you are new. Don't let the internet sway you.

[Dustcrusher]

A mean streak and very little imagination (?)

I was going to say "a thick skin that can withstand complaints of being overpowered from players not using Hamelin, Colette, or Kirai*" O:-)

In all seriousness, play who you want. Our local Dreamer player is not a powergamer- she really does like the fluff and models, so Dreamer ends up being tough but not unfairly so.

*Note: To be fair, I'm one of the complainers.

[Hatchethead]

Don't play like a dick and a douchebag, you should be fine.

I'm putting this on a t-shirt.

[CN the Logos]

Wow, so much righteous indignation.

I never said, "don't play him." I picked him up recently myself to be competitive with the other guys at my FLGS who are running crazy high powered crews, especially another guy using the Dreamer who (independently of that master's balance or lack thereof) is kind of being a tool about it. I just wanted the OP to be aware of the potential upsides and downsides of his choice since he said that his financial situation was limited and, by implication, that he wasn't going to have money to just buy something else if he didn't like his first choice.

To the OP: A lot of the craziness I was referring to in my previous post can be avoided if you only use one of the Dreamer's possible three totems and thus give your opponent an actual chance to reply to Lord Chompy Bits hitting their deployment zone like a freight train covered with butcher knives. If the subject of "playing down' (which is what deliberately not using your crew to its full potential is) comes up, be tactful about it. If the other players ask, you're doing it because you like the master but understand that certain aspects of him are unbalanced, not because you're super awesome and winning all the time gets boring.

My original closing stands. Good luck, godspeed, and I hope you have fun regardless of what master and crew you decide to play. :1_Happy_Puppet1: