Making Pandora more viable and fun.

[Psyce]

Just letting you know we made a house rule for Pandora. We found this necessary as there are only a couple Woes in the game and people were repeatedly not wanting to play her as the general consensus is that she is just weaker then the other masters and less fun. The change was minor but had some major implications that I think worked well.

We made it so that Really Annoying now gives -3 Skillful/Defense and now also gives -3 to the value of cards you flip to attack with. Some of you may argue that this change might be too powerful but it makes Baby Kade a much better Sidekick as he is now basically unhittable by one puppet if you set it up right. Also this change made it harder to hit Pandora in general which we found gave her much needed survivability. Most importantly it makes her more fun to play as this free action goes from mediocre to really strong if used well tactically. This was the best part as she is now more appealing to the more "Strategy Minded" players in our group.

What do you all think?

PS. It is also worth noting that I know I could buy a bunch of booster packs to get more sorrows but IMO that is a ridiculous fix to this as I don't want repeats of all the other pieces seeing as how there are so many repeats in each booster as is and my group likes to play with more variety in each warband and doesn't want to just run 4 of the same piece.

[Justin]

Do you feel this change would be necessary if there were simply more puppets?

[Psyce]

It is hard to say as I can imagine that certain Woes with the right Synergy could make her really good, but overall I think it is mostly a fun factor thing. I love Pandora as I actually play her in Malifaux, but the way she is built right now doesn't seem to be enticing any of our group to play her. This change made the players in our group have to really decide if they wanted to spend that animation round activating her instead of someone else. The desire to have to make this choice or not, especially early in a turn, made the Master feel more dynamic as a whole.

[Bohemian]

I think Pandora is the most difficult master to play because of the lack of woes. I like some extras of some puppets, but I don't need four of everything. I may try to trade for some puppets after I get an extra booster or two.

[ThePandaDirector]

I always thought Pandora was one of the strongest Masters.. interesting

But is she really that dependent on Woes? I know she's a difficult Master to get right as she's more about manipulation and movement than the other Masters, but I think that maybe you need to look more into what you can get out of the non-mask puppets. Ratty posted a great toybox, think it was something like:

Pandora

Kade

Hooded Rider

Mature Nephilim

2 Sorrows

bad Juju

Piglet

Hog Whisperer

You can proxy if needs be, but it's just important to not treat Puppet Pandora like her Malifaux counterpart, use your puppets to bring their Master to you, cast aside their precious assassins with Wing Fu and lock them down with Sorrows and Kade. You can also look at crow puppets to make Pandora survive longer, Tomes if you want cool upgrades (paralyze is always nice), Rams if you want to be a little more aggressive (Austringer might be a good choice) and suitless to make sure you don't go suit heavy.

Hope I don't come accross as patronising, I don't know how experienced you are, but be sure to try a few extra games without house rules, then come back with feedback so that it can be addressed.

I rarely play Pandora, I actually fear her, but then I'm just a humble stuffed animal.

Good luck =]

[Hugor]

I feel Pandora is just slightly different. When I explain the Masters, Lady J is for your melee people, Pokey Vic is for your fast Master killing, Marcus is a lot of setting up, hand control, and casting spells (at least how I play him), Seamus is hard to kill, longevity, and some annoying combinations with exhausts, and Pandora is fast minions and lots of annoying everyone else. Yes the extra woes in the long run will help her a lot, in my opinion, but I am just planning on waiting for the next release to see what wyrd puts out, before I start buying duplicate booster packs.

When I play her, I tend to do something like this:

Pandora

Baby Kade

Rusty Alice (or Hooded Rider...but I typically like Rusty Alice)

Malifaux Cherub

Sorrow

Bad JuJu (or Mature Nephilim)

Austringer

Guild Hound (For the upgrade on the Austringer)

And either a 2nd Cherub, a Silurid, or a low cost Outcast

While the house rule seems to work for your group, and I can see it really affecting certain things making Pandora's team stronger, what about adding the "woe" characteristic to a few of the puppets in pandora's toybox for the time being?

[Psyce]

While I appreciate the input here so far, and all the in depth toy boxes and tactics, there is one thing that none of you really addressed. That is that my group just finds that Pandora feels "less fun" to play. She isn't an enjoyable master to activate for many people I play with. She devours all your mask cards for abilities that tend to be very specific and not as powerful as some of the other masters. We felt this was especially true of "Really Annoying" which was why we changed it. With our change it makes maneuvering both your woes and Pandora, even more important. It also makes Pandora more of a threat to approach, which makes activating her more fun. Honestly if we are going to be playing 3-4 player games and there are only 4 masters available to me I need to find a way to make my entire group enjoy themselves.

[AntiZombie]

Ya i have to agree. Despite my repeatedly playing to to make her viable, even when i win with her she just isn't all that much fun. I have played with her more than any other master and now i feel like she is just meh. I have given her the necessary puppets and she still just isn't that much fun. I also find that when i play with her i don't DO anything with her. Sure she casts a spell every once in a while but for the most part i find myself with excessive actions on my hands.

Some possibilities for her (though she doesn't need ALL the things):

-Make BYOB an ability that can be used once per turn.

-make her able to move more than any other puppet

-jack up her defense

-allow her to cast a spell that gives her a natural mask for her abilities ( and have it go off on a 12 of masks or some such)

- Allow her to resurrect sorrows like seamus resurrects bells

I think the speed thing would be great. Make her fast so she can go on the offensive to steal workbenches. I know i would probably have a lot of fun with that.

[ThePandaDirector]

Qustions to you both then:

Is it Pandora who isn't fun, or Pandora toyboxes? Seems the same thing, but all your criticism has been placed on Pandora solely. I have to accept that you're not having fun (which is a shame), but for every criticism of Pandora I can think of puppets that will do things for her. Sure that's probably not what you want to hear, you want Pandora to do things herself otherwise she just stands there looking pretty, but RA and Downer are both In Play, SW is Rg4 and BYOB was playtested a lot and was too good to not be limited. If you think she needs to be faster or have more defence then that is focussing on the aspects she either doesn't need or should avoid at all costs (everyones gotta have a weakness). Be thankful she still doesn't have Short Legs

Are you using her aggressively? Is it that you want her to be as independent and nasty as Viktoria, able to get up close and shut people down (through RA not combat)? Because out of all the Masters she is the one that should stay away from enemies until she can approach them on her terms. Her toybox has to be quicker off the bat than others, take control of lots of workbenches (she should never be doing that unless it's far from the combat), manipulate their puppets from the beginning and never let up, I mean she's bloody ruthless, and sometimes infuriating to fight against =]

What is your idea of fun? If you think the way Pandora works is dull (which for me personally could be more easily applied to the other Masters), then how do you think she should feel. If it's just a case of feeling she's underpowered, doesn't get used too much, then surely that's more down to your playstyle. I can definitely testify to her not being underpowered, or mask starved (though she does tend to take less suit puppets), but I'm curious as to what's not to like about having the abilities to take complete control of your enemies puppets, lock them down, flip them around, and move a workbench forward to be completely unrelenting in your unforgiving assault of their simple minded, helpless Master =]

Pandora easily has the largest learning curve, all the other Masters come down to a level of brute force - rams are brutal, crows use attrition, tomes actions (often from upgrades) tip the balance while suitless are killkillkill. Mask puppets are less about that, especially with Pandora (you'll always have Mature Nephilim though), more about disabling the opponent and then going in for a surgical assassination (Greasy ftw). Kade, Cherub, Sorrows, etc. are all brilliant, not at killing but at making the opponent wish they did so they could at least get the upgrades. Pandora is a 80% support Master, expecting her to be able to bring the pain by herself would only make other combos broken.

So basically if you feel she's underpowered, try other tactics, take the focus off her and she'll find her place.

But if you feel that being a badass control freak is dull, or that she should sacrifice being a support Master to be able have a more personal role in the game then share your thoughs, we'll listen and take them into serious consideration. Frog legs was errata'd because people thought Viktoria was too powerful. Again she has her uses but has a lot less synergy with her toybox, taking Frog Legs away from her shows that changes will be made, but to those who find Viktoria "fun", I personally find her dull. In my humble opinion, as much as I hate her, the opposite would apply to Pandora.

[Hugor]

Wow, that was really well said ThePandaDirector.

[AntiZombie]

Personally I just find pandora dull. More often then not i don't end up activating her, or when i do I find myself not doing much with her. I am quite experienced with her and a puppet wars veteran too, and utilize her the way she was intended to.

In addition to this, she MUST have a certain toybox (or permeutation of that box) or she just doesn't function well. This is in contrast to all the other masters who can function quite viably with various toyboxes. To me that is her greatest weakness. When you have to basically take the same list every time I find that things get a bit dull for both the pandora player and her opponents. We all use her but in the end the general consensus is that any other master is just more fun to play.

This is just my opinion though.

[Psyce]

I have always been a support/control player. In the MOBA video game genre, League of Legends in particular, I am the guy that helps feed my carries and buys wards all game. I am the one that gets the vision and support items. I love supporty/slippery heroes that are able to assist their teammates to victory and be the unsung hero.

To me that is what I wanted from Pandora and I see it to an extent but much of the time I feel that her abilities just don't quite make the cut. It is not only me that is not having fun playing her, it is my gaming group which includes, weekly, 5-7 people who all rotate between various games.

I really want to stress here, it isn't that Pandora is too weak, or even that her toybox needs work(although that would help). She just isn't all that fun to play. Many of the times I do not feel the "juice is worth the squeeze" when it comes to spending one of my 5 precious animations on her. I love BYOB and I really like the idea of her "kit" and what she has going but something seems to be missing. I guess I wish that she truly supported her toys better and in a more interesting and dynamic way.

Edit: I just saw AntiZombie's post and what he says is also very true. She is reliant on certain toys more then any other Master and that forces you to build around her more then pick up and play like you can with the others. I really like the idea of a draft mode but I would hate to be the one who got Pandora and watched someone take Baby Kade/Sorrow before it was my turn to pick.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Psyce

[Ratty]

I can remember one game where I had Pandora and Kade left my opponent had five or six or puppets. I bunkered down behind some Impassible terrain. Due to her ability to add masks to activation, Kade's stuck counters and both models ability to move puppets I systematically toke out every model they sent at me.

[ThePandaDirector]

Ding ding, round 3! =]

Ok so now I think we're getting somewhere. A few more questions if you don't mind:

Do you (or friends) win many games with her?

Either way, I'd love if you posted some of your favourite (or "favourite") toyboxes for her. This way I can test them out (others are welcome too), and maybe see if there's a way to at least come up with some original tactics for her.

So as you said, and as Ratty proves (because we all know how bad a player he is), Pandora is not broken, she just doesn't feel right.

While I'm inclined to disagree I can understand where you're coming from. Seamus never felt right to me during testing, didn't feel like Seamus. The moment Taking Advantage and Hide and Seek were added, even if neither of those seemed revolutionary, they made him feel more characterful. Same with Marcus, it was only when Wyrd got Beastmaster right that I truly fell in love with him (was still love at first sight though).

So the biggest question of all is... what's missing?

I think nothing, she's got quite a lot of actions/abilties already, and they seem pretty fair. What if BYOB had a longer range, or was not limited, but a puppet in play takes a rip, etc? Pretty sure this was all covered in testing, but it's worth getting feedback even after conclusions have been made. Another idea, what if she, or a future Puppet, had an action that allows them to attach the Woe characteristic to any other puppets? I like that, but think it's better suited for another puppet.

Feel free to post up any toyboxes, battle reports or ideas for how to improve Pandora directly or (preferably) indirectly, and me and others will be sure to take a good look at them =]

[Psyce]

Well the real Pandora has almost no attack value and kills you with a thousand paper cuts. That would be hard to emulate in this game though as 2-3 wds is all most puppets have. Pandora's other specialty is supporting her Woes, which we already have to on the puppet version(though it does feel a bit specific to use).

The remaining abilities the Real Pandora focuses on is massive self movement and breaking enemy morale with willpower checks. I suppose one last ability of note is her spell that makes a model attack itself but this already exists, to an extent, on the Cherub, although it is different enough.

I feel that if Pandora either:

A. Had my original house rule and knocked down attack values that would be unique.

B. She could have a model attack itself but maybe lower its attack value to 0 or 1. You could still allow the controller to play a dodge card and make the spell require a high mask card to play it(to keep it balanced).

C. What if she had a range 2 or 3 pulse type ability that pushed all puppets away from her, or maybe pulled them toward her. This could be balanced by casting cost, range, or by controlling what it targets. It could work on only allies/only enemies/all models. A lot of tweaks could be done to balance it.

These are my suggestions as any of the above, but especially B/C, would make the hero more fun to activate.

Edit: I would be happy to see one of her other abilities go to have one of these BTW. Again it isn't her power that is the concern so much as her fun factor.

---------- Post added at 06:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:01 AM ----------

Also @ ThePandaDirector. You keep asking for people to post our toy boxes for Pandora but my issue is not in what toy box I use with her. My issue is purely in her "Fun Factor" as a master. Sure having more Woe options will definitely help, but right now I want the people in my play group to not feel like it is a punishment to be the 4th player stuck with Pandora.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Psyce

[AntiZombie]

right now I want the people in my play group to not feel like it is a punishment to be the 4th player stuck with Pandora.

It's only a punishment if you don't have pokey vik

[Psyce]

I don't have Pokey Vic. Much less the Rider or Lucius. I couldn't make it to Gencon, it is really far from me.

[ThePandaDirector]

You don't need to go to Gencon to buy what's on sale, Wyrd put everything on the online store. But those models will be released and until then feel free to proxy if you'd rather not play Pandora.

[Psyce]

The truth is, Panda, I didn't even hear about the game until after Gencon. Had I have been able to go I am certain I would have noticed this game in a rich world I have loved ever since I have delved into it.

[AntiZombie]

no worries psych, they say pokey vic and the rider will be general release eventually

but back onto topic

Panda: with you having playtested what do you think the general stratagy/idea behind pandora was? Unfortuantly the mear fact that this topic exists and is being responded too makes me think pandor is pandbora . But for real, never once have i ever heard anyone say they really enjoyed playing pandora, even when they win. Though granted She is one of my favorite sculpts in the game.

[Tauwolf]

Just thought I'd chime in on this. Our gaming group, I believe, would agree that Pandora is less fun to play.

I personally love this as a new ability, as it gives her an incredibly fun and useful action, and feels very Pandora-ish:

B. She could have a model attack itself but maybe lower its attack value to 0 or 1. You could still allow the controller to play a dodge card and make the spell require a high mask card to play it(to keep it balanced).

I think a 9:masks would be about right to get it off as a Cb1 attack. Furthermore, I think the player that owns the effected model should be the one to flip all the cards, from the attack to the dodge.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Tauwolf

[ThePandaDirector]

@Psyce: if you hadn't discovered the game till after Gencon, that's a different matter. I can say that Viktoria's availability is being addressed by Wyrd.

My views are just my own, not a reflection of Wyrd's intentions. However, I will say that this subject is now being addressed in Zoraida's Hut. Whether anything will change will be determined in time, but for now, be assured that everyones' points have been noted.

Just to reiterate, people don't think Pandora is broken, but that her actions/abilities don't fully reflect her character and/or are too reliant on Masks/Woes which would/n't be helped with more Woes. While my opinion has been expressed, I think she is ultimately what Marcus would be with less Stuffed Animals. Most Masters waste at least one ability/action if they don't take certain puppets, just try playing Marcus with no SAs, so while Pandora does suffer from a limited selection of those puppets, does this make her dull in the short term or full term?

Anyway, we'll all be listening, watching.. waiting, but not in a creepy way or anything

[AntiZombie]

And panda, that receptiveness is the only reason i engage in this dialogue. The behind the scenes Puppet wars people have done nothin but good things.

I must agree too. She isn't broken she is just kinda blah. As far as the marcus thing I have taken on a few challenges with him, like not taking stuffed animals, and he was still fun to play ( though VERY challenging).

I also agree though, that the difference between marcus and pandora may be that Marcus just has more of his "necessary puppets". There is certainly no shortage of stuffed animals.

[ThePandaDirector]

AntiZombie: When you played Marcus without SA, did you activate him much? I'm just thinking that the difference with that game was it was an interesting challenge (with some of Marcus' actions being useless), compared to being a common occurance should you not draft any SAs, which would feel punishing. So while Marcus is still fun in that scenario, it is interesting that Pandora is apparently not...

So since changes to her are being considered, I wonder if anyone would help me understand - if Pandora is not broken and doesn't feel right, how does simply buffing what she currently has change anything? I understand the desire to see a slight overhaul (replacing an action, making actions abilities etc.) but simple changes strike me as addressing the broken issue that supposedly isn't an issue.

[AntiZombie]

I think that the problem with pandora is that she is ALL synergy. That all synergy is fine in Malifaux but makes for a real boring puppet wars peice. With Marcus, even without his puppets, he can still defend himself and pose a threat to the other players sure he can't use all his abilities but he can still do something productive. With pandora there is little to no threat present when you leave her puppets out. In a void she will essentially BYOB and then be done as a master and a puppet. She just ends up running around hoping to draw a high card to attack with in the hand.

And just as a side note. I have no problem when i activate a master and have an action left over, or can't use an ability. Happens a lot in game. However, what i have a problem with is never having a reason to even activate the master because they are not going to do anything especially productive (which is the wall i often encoutner with pandora)