How to Beat the Dreamer: An Anti-Tactica

[Calmdown]

"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles"

-Sun Tzu

Welcome to my Anti-Dreamer tactica.

When I first started playing The Dreamer way back last year, my intention was primarily to learn how to deal with him. At the time I promised that when I'd done so, I'd write up my thoughts, and so this article is born.

Unfortunately, beating the Dreamer is not so much a matter of "do x, y and z; achieve victory", although nothing in Malifaux is ever that simple. Rather, to have a chance of beating the Dreamer, you need to understand him; you need to play to certain very specific ends, and you need to not have luck go against you. Pound for pound, the Dreamer and his crew (when properly selected) are straight-up better at movement and combat than every other crew in the game. You will almost never be on an even footing from the second lists are chosen. Games against Dreamer *will* be difficult, have no doubt about it; if your opponent is very skilled and you are not, then you will have a very tough time. Remember though, that every time you lose to the Dreamer, you can learn from your mistakes. Don't get upset; he is overpowered, and that's that. However, with the right list, and some skill, luck, and patience, you can give him something to worry about.

This tactica will take the form of a discussion on the Dreamer and his crew's various strengths and weaknesses, and how to mitigate and exploit them. It's going to get very maths heavy in parts, which you can choose to ignore or take on board at your leisure.

Threat Range

The Mechanics & Activation Order

The first thing to understand about the Dreamer is how his signature slingshot mechanic and hence threat range works. It goes like this:

Dreamer and 2 Daydreams within 6" companion activate

Daydream moves 6", and uses (1) Magical Extension to cast Frightening Dream, placing Chompy within 6".

Daydream uses a (0) to use Calm Dreams, burying Chompy and replacing him with The Dreamer (in base contact with Chompy)

Dreamer uses (0) "I Can Fly!", giving him Wk 7 and Flight

Dreamer moves 7"

Dreamer uses his instinctual (0) to use Nightmare Friend and replace with Chompy

The Distances

Daydream moves 6" = 6" moved

Place within (not completely within) places Chompy a further 6"+2" (Chompy's base size) = 14" moved

Replacing with the Dreamer gains a further 1" (Dreamer's base size) = 15" moved

I can fly move moves another 7" = 22" moved

Replacing with Chompy gains 2" of base size = 24" moved

NB: Due to the difference in mm and inches in base sizes, the actual gain is approximately 24.15"

Chompy will mostly be using his Claws, which have a 3" reach, meaning that at this point Chompy's threat range is 27" with 2AP and his +1 Melee Expert remaining for a total of 3AP.

This can be extended by either The Dreamer moving another 7" giving a threat range of 34" and leaving Chompy with 2AP.

It can also be extended by Chompy charging for his first attack giving a threat range of 33" with two potential attacks, one of them with +ve damage flip.

The Retreat

Once Chompy Triggers "All Done!", he is buried and replaced with The Dreamer.

Daydream uses (1) Magical Extension to cast Frightening Dream, placing Chompy within 6".

Daydream uses a (0) to use Calm Dreams, burying Chompy and replacing him with The Dreamer (in base contact with Chompy)

The same Daydream has a (1) action remaining, with which it can either Walk or use (1) Lead Nightmare to pull the first Daydream back 4" to safety (if it can see it; this is targeted)

Note that this retreat has a 100% dependency on Chompy triggering his "All Done!" trigger. If he doesn't, then he is still on the board, and the Daydream cannot cast Frightening Dream as it is not a valid spell for Magical Extension. More on "All Done!" later.

Conclusions: Deployment Tactics

Between deployment zones, there is a 24" gap.

This means that if the Dreamer deploys directly opposite you, he can hit you over 3" into your deployment zone. If you're deploying second, he is almost always going to deploy opposite you and do this to you. If you want to deny him 1AP worth of attacks, you can only deploy 2.8" onto the board and be safe; it therefore follows that a model on a 50mm base cannot avoid the full fury of a 3AP Chompy on turn one in this situation. You therefore have the choice when deploying of staying safer by deploying back, or deploying your full 6" forward and eating the Chompy attacks.

Deploying second gives you a lot more room to breath. It is a huge advantage against the Dreamer and any time you win the deployment/board edge flip against the Dreamer, you should always choose to deploy second. I won't bore you with the trigonometry involved in working this out, but in order to deny the Dreamer his full AP in attacking you turn one whilst still deploying on the edge of your deployment zone, you need to be 12.4" away in horizontal distance (ie 12.4" away measuring across the width of the board) from the nearest Daydream. This is easier said than done given that the board is only 36" wide and The Dreamer will likely deploy relatively centrally, but you know where he's placed so you know if you can take advantage of this. If you deploy just 5" into your deployment zone, you only need to be 10.2" away from the nearest Daydream. Knowing these distances is handy, so I'll summarise them in a little table:

Safe Deployment Zone - Horizontal Distance from Daydream

3" - Always Safe

4" - 7.3"

5" - 10.2"

6" - 12.4"

Maths

I said I wouldn't bore you with the maths so it's in a separate section. Skip this bit if you like. Read it if you like maths. It's relatively simple highschool stuff. It's how the above was worked out.

Pythagoras' Theorem states that a² + b² = c²

Where:

a = cross-board distance to Daydream target (24" by default, deployment zone to deployment zone)

b = horiztonal distance from Daydream to target

c = Distance moved to reach target with Chompy (27" maximum to get there with 3AP)

So to work out whether or not you are safer when deploying vs the Dreamer:

Let's say I'm deploying 6" onto the board, so a = 24

I want to know how far my safe horizontal distance from a Daydream is, so b = x

I know Chompy's threat range is 27", so c = 27

24² + x² = 27²

576 + x² = 729

x² = 729 - 576 = 153

x = root153 = 12.4"

When I play Dreamer, I do trig on the fly to work out where I can get to and where I can't. Being able to do this in reverse can massively help your placement against the Dreamer. Whether or not you want to go to this level of detail is up to you

Actions and Action Points

Dreamer's Actions

The Dreamer and Chompy's One Master rule means that they can only spend a maximum of 3 general AP between the two of them. What this means translated into real terms, is that if either of them spends more than 1 general AP, the other one loses 1 general AP.

For this reason, it is optimal for The Dreamer to only ever spend 1 AP. Most of his actions are (0) actions and he gets two of them with Instinctual, but he does have some notable 1AP actions also:

(1) Walk - The Dreamer's most commonly used (1) action.

(1) Frightening Dream - This spell places one Nightmare within 6". It can be used to place Chompy as an alternative to (0) Nightmare Friend. It requires only a 4 to cast, and with a mask trigger, can summon any number of Nightmares.

(1) Calm Dreams - Buries any number of Nightmares within 6". Usually used as an escape mechanism or to reposition minions. Not one you'll see too often though.

And The Dreamer's (0) actions:

(0) "I Can Fly" - The Dreamer's most used (0) action. He's going to want to cast this almost every time he moves, eating up one of his (0) actions.

(0) Nightmare Friend - The Dreamer's second most used (0) action. Turns the Dreamer into Chompy.

(0) Inflict Dreams - This is a spell you should be very, very afraid of. -ve flips when defending against Nightmares. Pretty much guaranteed death to anything this hits, whether death comes from Chompy or elsewhere.

(0) Unhinge - Not one you'll see often, but devastating against low Wp models. Automatic paralyze with a 6" range. Silurids, Terror Tots, Doves, Gremlins and more beware! (Paralyzing Ophelia is hilarious)

(0) Night Terrors - Not one you'll see often, but gives all Nightmares within 6" Terrifying 13. Can be quite brutal if you're playing a crew susceptible to this and Dreamer has just dropped his crew off.

Alternate Slingshot & Inflict Dreams

Now that you know the Dreamer's movement mechanics, you know that he pretty much requires both of his (0) actions and a (1) Walk action to gain the threat range he's so feared for. But, you also need to be very aware of Inflict Dreams. A good Dreamer player will do everything he can to save himself a (0) action so that he can cast Inflict on something before he drops Chompy. I present to you, an alternate activation sequence for the Dreamer slingshot - and one that you should fear more than the 'standard' one mentioned above.

Dreamer and 2 Daydreams within 6" companion activate

Daydream moves 6", and uses (1) Magical Extension to cast Frightening Dream, placing Chompy within 6" = 12" moved

Daydream uses a (0) to use Calm Dreams, burying Chompy and replacing him with The Dreamer (in base contact with Chompy) = 15" moved

Dreamer uses a (0) action to cast Inflict Dreams at a target, with his Ca 7 and possibly a soulstone

Dreamer casts (1) Frightening Dream and summons Chompy within 6", also gaining 2" of base size = 23" moved

Chompy's 3" melee range gives this maneuvre a total threat range of 26"

As you can see, this slingshot is much, much worse than the original and loses only 1" of threat range.

Conclusion: AP Denial

As you can see, it is impossible to avoid the damage that the Dreamer and Chompy do, but it is very possible to mitigate it. The key to doing this is to make sure that the Dreamer's actions are used on movement-related actions; be it (1) Walk actions, (1) Frightening Dreams, (0) "I Can Fly!", or (0) Nightmare Friend. This can be difficult to do, especially as you close the distance to them, but you should always bear it in mind. When playing against The Dreamer, inches matter.

Lord Chompy Bits Eating Your Face

Let's take a look at exactly how and why Chompy eats the faces off everything. Including things that don't even have faces.

Attacks

Claws - 3" reach, Cb 5, Dg 2/4/6, Paired (Triggers: Flay, Onslaught, All Done)

Teeth - 1" reach, Cb 7, Dg 2/3/5, Poison 2 (Triggers: Disembowel, Onslaught, All Done)

In almost all cases, Chompy will be hitting you with his Claws. A Dreamer player is looking to do the following:

1) Hit an Onslaught trigger, and if not a Flay trigger.

2) When the opportunity arises, cheat high enough for a straight flip and cheat damage

3) Make absolutely sure he hits an "All Done!" trigger before Chompy is out of AP

Sometimes Chompy will use Teeth. This is normally due to some combination of

Is in range for it (1" is a small melee range compared to what Dreamer players are used to)

He has a suited/high card to cheat so cares less about wanting paired for the extra flip

Wants the extra 2 Cb against a hard-to-hit target

Wants to try for a disembowel

Wants to use the poison against an armoured target, spirit, or 4 Wd model for a good chance of a one-attack kill.

Most of Chompy's threat potential comes from Onslaught, not in the least because he doesn't need to share the Rams with anyone else in his list. The normal tactics for Onslaughting, depending on your hand, are that Chompy will be happy hitting low and often with a -ve flips. When the opportunity arises, he will cheat high and stone, maybe with a Flay, to get a big damage attack to kill something.

If Chompy flips higher than you on the initial flip and your total is low, you should *never* pass your cheating opportunity and allow him to cheat up high and make his damage flip cheatable (if you can help it). It can be demoralising to have a Chompy in your face, but remember; every AP he spends killing one model, is an AP he doesn't have to kill the next model, so don't give him easy big hits.

Chompy is also scary because he can use soulstones. A good Dreamer player will have 7/8 in his pool in every list. You have to make him burn those stones one way or another; every time you force him to stone an attack flip, it's one less stone to deal with later. He wants to alpha-strike your guys off the board before you close with him. Make sure he has to burn stones to make that possible.

Conclusion: Weathering the Storm

Chompy is going to attack you and things are likely going to die. You need to accept this fact, and build your early game around it.

-DO NOT GET DISHEARTENED! Chompy's biggest asset maybe, is his psychological effect on the player.

-Be very careful with your cards, gaining every point of combat difference that you can, and intelligently deciding when to cheat and when to save your high card for the next attack instead. Don't throw good cards after a lost cause, but do try to stop him getting +ve flips. His minimum damage of 2 isn't very scary.

-Don't hold cards for later turns unless you absolutely need to, and try to prioritise effectively whether you *really* need to save that high card for casting something with your crew this turn. Remember that if you don't weather the storm effectively, there won't *be* and endgame.

-Remember he is only Cb 5 with Claws, which is decidedly average, and remember that stone flips can and do flip low numbers. Don't be afraid to take a punt on making him miss. If he stones to hit, it's one less stone, and a better chance of him only flipping -ve on damage.

-Remember, Onslaught needs to hit to trigger. If you can make him miss a potential Onslaught, you've maybe gained two misses for the price of one.

-Know when to roll over to Onslaught attacks. If he kills your model, his Onslaught trigger does nothing. Cheating may sometimes simpyl be wasting cards.

"All Done!"

This is so important to the functionality of Dreamer & Chompy, that it deserves a section all to itself.

As I mentioned earlier, Chompy's "All Done!" trigger buries him and replaces him with The Dreamer. This trigger is what makes the Dreamer slingshot so feared; the lack of ability to answer it.

Here's some facts about all done:

0) Dreamer players will always try to trigger all done on the last attack of Chompy's activation.

1) It needs a Tome, meaning no Tome = Chompy standing in front of your whole crew.

2) It needs a Tome, meaning on the attack he triggers it, you won't have to deal with any of his naughty killy triggers.

3) It triggers whether Chompy hits or misses with the attack

4) It buries Chompy and replaces him with the Dreamer before the attack is resolved (more on this later).

5) If he hits a Black Joker and it was his last AP of the turn, Chompy is in deep trouble.

So what does this mean and how can you exploit it?

-The Dreamer player has to have a Tome in his hand to pull Chompy & Dreamer back to his lines. If he doesn't have one in his hand, he is either not going to slingshot in the first place, or take the first tome he flips earlier in Chompy's activation. Either way, it means that without a high tome in hand Chompy will lose some effectiveness on that turn.

-If Chompy has already used 2AP, you know on his next AP he needs to hit a Tome. You can with some certainty know that your worries for that turn are almost over. Some Chompy players will get cocky and take an Onslaught trigger with their last AP; if they do, you should do everything in your power to make that Onslaught miss, as he won't have an easy way to run away after this!

-If you have a model that is almost dead but not quite, and he is on his last attack, exploit the fact that he has other things to worry about by cheating high. You may well save your model when he is forced to cheat a low Tome, and if he uses a stone to hit you, then at least he's using a stone on a non-Onslaught/Flay attack.

-The Dreamer is on the table when your model dies, probably standing just behind where Chompy was (most Dreamer players don't know or do this; dont let them get away with it!). If the model Chompy killed was Slow to Die, it could well get off a shot or ability at The Dreamer. This makes playing against Von Schill crews quite dangerous!

...to be continued!

Edited January 26, 2012 by Calmdown

[Calmdown]

Reserved!

[Calmdown]

Reserved for mo..

[Calmdown]

Reserved for Q&A

[Guardian]

Nice writeup!

I have never faced the dreamer...but from what I see, this screams Jack Daw!

[the_madhatter1]

Cool stuff calmdown

[micahwc]

I picked up the Dreamer to round out my Neverborn several months ago, but have so far only been able to play 1 game with him. I have read the pullmyfinger article on him. I found this to be a very helpful guide to how to play the dreamer.

Thanks.

[Cunning]

Something to add to this is that if you're opponent hasn't made sure to get his daydreams safe, spells like lure can cause problems for the dreamer player. Get the daydream over 6" away and suddenly Chompy's threat range is reduced considerably or the dreamer has to waste ap and soulstones to summon another one.

[Calmdown]

Something to add to this is that if you're opponent hasn't made sure to get his daydreams safe, spells like lure can cause problems for the dreamer player. Get the daydream over 6" away and suddenly Chompy's threat range is reduced considerably or the dreamer has to waste ap and soulstones to summon another one.

Haven't gotten to Daydreams yet

[Cunning]

Haven't gotten to Daydreams yet

Oh right, there's more to come? Well I'll shut up then.

[Calmdown]

Oh right, there's more to come? Well I'll shut up then.

That's what "to be continued" generally implies

[Cunning]

I didn't see that bit...

[dsmiles]

Impressive. Not only is this an "Anti-Tactica," but it's a pretty good tactica as well.

And now I know how to pull off the Chompy Boomerang. :firedevil

mwahahaMwaHaHaHaMWAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAAAHAHAAHAHAAAAAA!!

I'm sorry, did I get any of that evil on you?

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

The Dreamer was my first crew. I thought I was pretty hot stuff, winning all the time with him. Then i realized how strong he was.

Having much experience with the Dreamer, I can tell you that this anti-tactica is pretty legit.

Here's a few bullet points though that I really feel are important.

-Kill the day dreams. If you read the post, you'll see how important they are. They aren not that hard to deal with. Making more cost the Dreamer stones, so either way its good.

-Don't focus on the dreamer unless you know you can hurt him. Remember he can shrug shots off onto nearby models. The best chance you have is the first turn. Pay attention to the deployment, if your Dreamer opponent deploys badly you may gib a few day dreams right away.

-Don't be afraid to bait and let a model die. A good dreamer player will not let Lord Chomby Bits out till he knows that he can kill an important model. If you plan it right, you can get LCB out in the open, there he's toast. LCB hits like a tank but is made out of paper.

-Don't spread out, but don't bunch together. If you deploy to far apart, the dreamer can pick and choose who he wants to kill. If you clump together, he can tie up and charge block your models. Stay loose, you want to be able to react to the dreamer, which is what you will always be doing.

-Every kill hurts. The Dreamer is a glass cannon if there ever was one. Every model you kill puts hurt on the crew. LCB is good, but on thier own both are very weak to damage.

[magicpockets]

Reserved!

Reserved for mo..

Reserved for Q&A

Fookin genius, wish I'd thought of doing that

[dsmiles]

Fookin genius, wish I'd thought of doing that

Yeah, but you gotta post when the site is slow, and that's not very often, as far as I can tell.

[Calmdown]

Yeah, but you gotta post when the site is slow, and that's not very often, as far as I can tell.

Or be REALLY fast.

I still play FPS and have good reactions, Magicpockets is getting on a bit...

[JisaacT]

This just makes me worried. I am about to go up against the dreamer. What crews are effective against him. I have seamus, Molly, and Lilith. I just dont know if these first book guys would be good up against him.

I was thinking kirai might be an effective ressur against him but Im really not sure.

[micahwc]

Of these, I think Lilith has the best chance against him.

[Foton]

My Girlfriend bought the Dreamer for me for my birthday last night, so I've been reading on him. And this is as helpful to a new Dreamer player as it is someone against the dreamer. Thanks!

-DO NOT GET DISHEARTENED! Chompy's biggest asset maybe, is his psychological effect on the player.

I love that you've considered this.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Foton

[JisaacT]

Of these, I think Lilith has the best chance against him.

What would be a good list to take against him then?

[micahwc]

What would be a good list to take against him then?

I'm not really sure. I have never played against him, and only played with him once. I would assume Lilith's high defense would help. I think (assuming high DF actually helps) that Waldgeists would be helpful because of their defense and armor.

If you bring anything big it will probably die on the first turn. I guess I woud try having a larger number of lower cost minions. (4-6 point range) This is just theory, and I am sure people with more experience will answer.

As an aside I wonder how Bad Juju would do as he is fairly resilient and can spawn anywhere on the board.

[Chucklemonkey]

Deleted to prevent confusion but delete button not working

Edited January 29, 2012 by Chucklemonkey

[Kadeton]

Just as an aside, I have found the spill black blood ability fairly useful a couple of times for circumventing the dreamers anti-targetting rules if you have the wounds to spare.

So Spill Black Blood specifies that only "Non-Neverborn models" take the Wds, at least in Rising Powers. Was this changed to "Non-Nephilim models" on the statcards? Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the Dreamer is a Neverborn model.

[Chucklemonkey]

So Spill Black Blood specifies that only "Non-Neverborn models" take the Wds, at least in Rising Powers. Was this changed to "Non-Nephilim models" on the statcards? Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the Dreamer is a Neverborn model.

You are quite correct, not sure what the hell I was talking about there, gotten myself confused apologies all.