Nicodem and vulture

[Huang Da Wei]

looking at the cards, seems the vulture can cast nicos spells, so is it possible for the vulture to plant a rogue necromancy deep into your opponents space.

would it be through eyes and ears or magical extension?

if possible could you explain fully how I would go about it cos I know one opponent who would just hate me for it

[CrouchingMoose]

I believe only with magical extension can you do that since eyes and ears allows him to draw los through the vulture and summoning has nothing to do with los.

[brdparker]

Hm...

(CC: 16:crows:crows /Rst: - /Rg: C) Discard a number of Corpse Counters within 6” equal to the base size of 1 non-Spirit, non-Unique Undead model. Summon that model. Draw 1 card for each Corpse Counter discarded.

I hadn't thought of that before. Surprisingly, I'm seeing actually six possibilities for the wording, and there is an argument for each:

Middle-Ground One:

Discard x CC's within 6" of the caster. Summon the model within the point from which LOS and range is drawn:

The CC's are within 6" of Nico and you use Eyes and Ears to summon the RN within 6" of the vulture.

Middle-Ground Two: The Opposite:

Discard x CC's within 6" of the point from which LOS and range is drawn. Summon the model within 6" of the caster

The CC's are within 6" of the Vulture and it is summoned within 6" of Nico.

All-Out LOS and Range:

Discard x CC's within 6" of the point from which LOS and range is drawn and summon the model within 6" of that same point.

The CC's and summoning are all within 6" of the vulture.

All-Out Caster:

Discard x CC's within 6" of the caster and summon the model within 6" of the same model

The CC's and summoning are all within 6" of Nico (which would nullify Eyes and Ears' usefulness).

The Liberal Extrapolation:

Discard x CC's within 6" of the point from which LOS is drawn and/or the caster. Summon the model within 6" of either the caster or the point from which LOS and range is drawn

The CC(s) can be split between being within 6" of Nico and 6" of the Vulture, broken up as you wish. The RN can be summoned within 6" of either as well.

The Closed Extrapolation:

You can't do it

Oh well...

I tend to lean toward the third one, since it is a spell with a range of "close." Therefore, I would read the spell as:

Discard a number of Corpse Counters within 6” of the point from which one draws LOS and range equal to the base size of 1 non-Spirit, non-Unique Undead model. Summon that model within 6" of the point from which one draws LOS and range. Draw 1 card for each Corpse Counter discarded.

My thoughts. This has never come up, so I honestly have no idea what the official ruling is.

Edited January 4, 2012 by brdparker

[Oshova]

I would say you can draw LoS from the Vulture, but the ranges are from the caster (unless stated otherwise, such as with Rasputina and Ice Gamins).

However, if the Vulture is casting, then you can really have some fun if you have luck on your side. With only a cast of 2, you need 14:crows:crows from your cards, so you need a high crow flipped first or from your hand, and then a lucky extra flip from a SS to get another :crows.

[brdparker]

I would say you can draw LoS from the Vulture, but the ranges are from the caster (unless stated otherwise, such as with Rasputina and Ice Gamins).

Makes sense, but for the wording of Eyes and Ears:

(1) Eyes and Ears: Until the End Activation Phase, when casting a spell, this model's connected Master may draw LoS and range from this model. These spells receive -3 Ca. Spells with the icon may not be cast through a model in melee using Eyes and Ears.

[Q'iq'el]

OK, there are two distinctive rules here Eyes and Eyes and Magical Extension.

I don't remember the Vulters actual Ca, but it is low. Reanimate is a hard spell to get off. I doubt you can do it with Vulture without burning Soulstones and even with Soulstones it may be hard.

If you do it though, that is use Magical Extension, the Vulture is the Caster and the spell focuses around him.

You have to remember that not only the counters have to be within 6" of the Caster, but also the summoned model must be placed in that range from the caster (summoning rules).

If we speak about Eyes and Ears, this ability is used by the Vulture, but Nicodem casts spells through it in his own activation (not the Vulture's). The Caster is Nicodem and Reanimate is a Rng:C spell, so it is always focused on the Caster.

Since you don't need LoS to Counters to sacrifice them for that spell, there's no way Vulture can help with that.

And yes, rules for Eyes and Ears allow you to draw range from the Vulture, but this is when the spell has a Range.

Reanimate has "0" range if you wish, Rng:C means it is always cast on the caster himself. The ranges to counters within spells are the limits of the Additional Requirements and effects of the spells, not the spell's Rng, so Vulture cannot affect those or be used to modify those.

Last but not least, why bother? If you know you want to reanimate, you can use Bring Back to teleport counters to Nicodem (ok, that may not work if you want Rogue Necromancy from these 4 Corpses far away, but that is why you take 2 Vultures, no? ). Since Nicodem will be casting in his activation anyway, the end result is practically identical and you avoid −3Ca penalty for using Eyes and Ears.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[brdparker]

If we speak about Eyes and Ears' date=' this ability is used by the Vulture, but Nicodem casts spells through it in his own activation (not the Vulture's). The Caster is Nicodem and Reanimate is a Rng:C spell, so it is always focused on the Caster.[/quote']

That's right, I always forget that "C" stands for "caster," not "close." Always seemed a little weird to me. Anyway, that explanation does make sense.

[Golden]

Vultures are GODAWFUL!!! They have a cast of 2 no suit which means they need crows for magical extension to succeed and even then, you need a 12 crows just to cast decay and a soulstone along with a crow to cast rigor mortis. You have better things to do with crows in a Nico crew, better to hire the grave spirit which can actually magical extension any of his spells due to its 3 crow cast, it has better abilities than the vulture, and costs half the soulstones. Ive actually debated the Necrotic machine, with its 4crow cast, offensive capabilities and the ability to make Mortimer undead almost seems like a good utility to have for certain games.

[Q'iq'el]

There are always people who can't play, but think they are masters.

Grave Spirit is a very good totem, no argument.

Vultures, if used right, are absolutely OP. Yes, they are not there to cast with their own Ca. They have two separate tasks, both very important to Nicodem.

The first is to gather the Corpse Counters quickly. This is important, but there are other models that can be used that way.

The second is to provide a very slow master with not one, but 3 shooting solutions each turn. This is tactically invaluable and in my not so humble opinion, anyone who dismisses Vultures hasn't mastered Nicodem yet.

Of course it isn't a tool necessary against every crew out there, so if you are confident you will be able to shoot openly thorough the game against certain opponents, Grave Spirit becomes a better option.

[Golden]

For cost, Id rather run dogs to gather corpses. I just have not found a situation using Nicodem in which I said: I really wish I had a vulture for this. But assuredly, I appreciate snide comments, thats how I learn. And assumption of perceived status over an opinion expressed with conviction, please allow me a brief pause while I marvel at your insight...

Seriously though, all flirting aside...

I would appreciate if you gave a few examples of how Vultures can be OP, not that I believe it cannot be done, I would honestly love to know, and not consider the 8 hours I spent painting them to be a total waste.

[Q'iq'el]

For a post to be a valuable opinion, it has to actually contain an argument, rather than merely being judgmental. You got the snide remarks not because I feel superior or that I disagree with you (many very good players don't feel confortable with Vultures), but because you're just another person coming with OMG THESE MODELS ARE GODAWFUL to a legitimate thread asking for some advice over Vulture tactics. Not only is that unhelpful, but you are OOT, as this is a discussion about specific tactic, not opinions.

Yes, I did mention other models can carry counters for Nicodem. Canine Remains are good example. Vultures are in my opinion better for that particular task... but not that is the problem. This is a separate discussion we had many times on the forums, so you can search for it (not to go too OT here), but generally speaking Canine remains do not mesh up very well with most powerful Nicodem builds. They are situationally OK, even good, but there are better models for fast objective grabbing and ways to run Corpse Counter factory (which is a bit of a mistake to begin with) without wasting crucial game opening activations on killing own models. They do belong with so called summoner Nicodem build, but I think quite a few Nicodem players on this forum believe this entire build is a misunderstanding (too bad it is so widely propagated many new players sink their money into it).

As to the Vultures, their first great advantage is mobility. It is not only good in general terms, it is unbelievable in Nicodem's crew terms. Some people complain they die too easily, but they are 30mm flying models with 20" movement and Perch - one can hide them anywhere with minimal effort.

Their mobility, ability to Perch and Eyes and Ears bring unpredictability to otherwise clear situations - Nicodem is slow, his troops have to stay relatively close, opponent can dance around grabbing perfect attack positions... but what if a Vulture flies to the top of the nearby tree or ruin, activates Eyes and Ears only for Nicodem to pull off Rigor Mortis and disable that perfectly placed crucial model, until it gets devoured by the Undead? In other words, Vultures can be used to mess up with the opponent and his plans - mere presence on the table is sometimes enough, they don't have to do much.

Secondly, as Nicodem player you want to achieve some sort of wide engagement on the middle of the table. Capture most of the opponent units and either force them to fight on your terms, or bog them down long enough for the slow guys (=the undead) to grab the objectives.

Easier said than done, but the bigger the melee, the more advantage you have. Obviously the opponent will have to be drawn into it and most will avoid it and obviously it isn't optimal Strategy for most scenarios... but when things start looking proper, the biggest problem for Nicodem is LoS and angles. Sure, he can Decay his own minions from the back to get a heal off here and there, but this limits his options and unlike other masters, he cannot easily switch his position. Vultures behind enemy lines mean he can pick out other models as well or get a shooting solution on models, which hide from him and the combat.

There are not too many models which both extend caster's spell range, provide him with shooting solutions and can remain more or less untouchable during that action (depends on the terrain and availability of ranged weapons of course). Just consider how difficult it is for Rasputina to bounce spells of her friendly models - here for the cost of −3Ca you get absolute freedom of action. This is always OP in games, where positioning means everything.

But of course, not all Strategies are the same. Going for map control missions, trying to grab objectives or terrain or defend it (i.e. when Nicodem crew needs to spread out a bit and he is more exposed, but also more actively moving), I'd probably go with survivability and higher frequency of spell casts the Grave Spirit provides.

Consider how good Night Terrors are and then that in many Strategies and on many tables Vultures are nearly as good, with extra synergy with their crew.

Last but not least, Ca of 2 and the penalty for Eyes and Ears look awful only on paper. Only if you assume you are going to spend at least 1AP a turn on casting with the totem. Well, you won't. Vultures spend most of their time threatening the opponent position, grabbing counters and generally moving around. Every now and then an opportunity for a perfect shot will appear, and then Nicodem or the Vulture will burn a Soulstone for that Decay or Rigor Mortis.

This is the game where crews are small - such one perfect Snipe at the right place and time can easily win you the games and you pay mere 4SS for the pleasure.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Golden]

That is the best argument for Vultures I have ever seen. It may be worth it just in being able to use Bolster Undead more, I have found myself using Arise very frequently in my last few games just to bring corpses into Reanimator range. Point accepted, its not as direct a comparison as I had thought before, mostly because Ive weighed the totems casting against one another, Bring Back doesn't look very appealing on paper either and Im leery about Eyes and Ears because I have terrible luck. With the Grave Spirit, its link and cast for most of the game, while Vultures don't really use their own AP for attacks.

Gonna look into that...

[Golden]

Also I feel I should mention, out of the 12 people that play in my area, I have the most experience with res'sers. When I find what works for me, I tend to gravitate towards it.

[Huang Da Wei]

Thanks guys for the advice, loads of info for me to take in. I have only played 3 games so far with Mcmourning but managed to get Nic and a vulture for some tactical change.

Could you explain the bring back a bit more, it says 'this models connected master picks up 1 corpse counter within 3" of this model'

am I right in thinking if the cc is within 3 inches of the vulture and it uses bring back as a 1 ap that Nico gets the cc from that. the vulture doesnt pick up and then have to fly the item back to him.

[Q'iq'el]

Thanks guys for the advice, loads of info for me to take in. I have only played 3 games so far with Mcmourning but managed to get Nic and a vulture for some tactical change.

Could you explain the bring back a bit more, it says 'this models connected master picks up 1 corpse counter within 3" of this model'

am I right in thinking if the cc is within 3 inches of the vulture and it uses bring back as a 1 ap that Nico gets the cc from that. the vulture doesnt pick up and then have to fly the item back to him.

Yes, that's exactly how it works.

Combined with the easy with which the Vulture can get to such Counter, this is a very quick and reliable method... but if there is more than 1 counter, it becomes problematic, as you won't have AP to send them all to Nicodem in one turn (and a sitting vulture is as good as a sitting duck).

[Huang Da Wei]

I was told that graverobbers can just walk/pass over a counter to collect but others have to use 1ap to interact and collect, is that the case for the vulture?

[Q'iq'el]

I was told that graverobbers can just walk/pass over a counter to collect but others have to use 1ap to interact and collect, is that the case for the vulture?

Yes, but it's problematic. I'm not sure if it is an omission, or by design, but if it picks up the counters (without spending AP on Bringing Back), how is it going to pass those to Nicodem?

Nicodem cannot use counters carried by other models.

Vultures cannot pass the Counters on their own... you'd have to kill the Vulture just to get to the tokens it carries (then they'll drop on the table).

Granted, at least for me it is their secondary role and if a Corpse Counter falls far from Nicodem, it's usually a single instance... but it is a limitation of their abilities.

[Huang Da Wei]

I see, so 1 ap would collect, 1 ap to get it to Nico, but it has so many better uses.

right, time to build me up some zombies I think

[Q'iq'el]

I see, so 1 ap would collect, 1 ap to get it to Nico, but it has so many better uses.

right, time to build me up some zombies I think

I'm not sure what do you mean?

The way it works is you spend 1 AP per counter. For that 1 AP cost the Nicodem picks up 1 counter within 3" from the Vulture. It doesn't have to be carried - it is virually teleported to Nicodem. Because Nicodem carries it, he can use it, but obviously that means the Counters gathered that way won't be available for Molly, Mortimer or any other minion that could use them (which isn't that big of a problem, as you can quickly create Mindless Zombies from them and they count as Corpse Counters).

The reason, why I said more than 1 Counter is problematic, is that you have only 2 AP on the vulture and it needs to get to the counter. So you walk with 1 AP and Bring it Back with second... or Bring it Back with first and then use second to run for it and hide.... sticking around picking up 2 counters per turn is a sure way to get the vulture killed from my experience.

[Huang Da Wei]

ah, I see. seems like I need to run 2 vultures and use then really as magical extensions and eyes 'n' ears to get the best from them

[CrouchingMoose]

If your running vultures...I find that you always want to have both. That being said, don't expect much from them for magical extension. Their CA is bad enough that having them cast nicodems spells is highly unlikely. But using their ap to move and use eyes and ears allows nicodem to threaten more of the board for his turn...Even with the -3 to CA nicodem suffers for casting through the vultures, it is still better than the vultures base CA

[Spoon]

True. As a dedicated Resser (Nicodem and I are close friends) I find that I rarely take a totem. I would usually rather have another dog or the stones. That said I agree with the point from earlier that the necrotic machine could be useful. Must test more.

[Huang Da Wei]

I have only just started Malifaux so we play 25ss games, what sort of list should I start with?

I have canines, punk zombies, would these be a good starting point?

Obviously I need to get making zombies

[Q'iq'el]

I have only just started Malifaux so we play 25ss games, what sort of list should I start with?

I have canines, punk zombies, would these be a good starting point?

Obviously I need to get making zombies

No. Making Zombies is one of the options and not the strongest one. Very popular, because that is what draws people to Nicodem (i.e. master summoner thing), but it isn't what works the best for him.

Canine remains are a utility model. Remembering that your goal will be completing strategies, not overwhelming the opponent or killing him, you can grab 2~4 of these to run objectives. I personally find Necro Punks, Night Terrors and Crooligans better at that - those models provide extra utility or combat power besides mere speed.

Nicodem is so slow, he is forced to spend first turn or two to position himself right. That cannot be understated. He moves only 6" a turn and you can squeeze 12" out of the initial turns, which will allow him to occupy a strategic location by turn 3". During that time his minions need to engage threats to him and he needs to defend himself.

Mortimer can create 2 Counters by the end of turn 2. If you bring Molly, you can double that, or even add one more with Necrotoic Machine.

Nicodem can spend his one casting-expert action on creating fresh minions from these counters and can use (0) Arise to get Mindless Zombies after he had moved.

After you reach your position, you start healing up or bringing back the minions you've lost. The counters are already on the ground (if you lost any minions), so there's no need to create new ones. If your opponent can destroy counters, you have to use Vultures to secure them.

This is sometimes refered as "zombie block" by Nicodem players... that is because you move for the first two turns in somewhat tight formation, ensuring the opponent cannot threaten Nicodem directly (has to kill his Zombies first) and that the minions are within Bolster Undead range (no Arise then, but Bolster makes them harder to kill).

Models which work very well for this formation, in its initial stages, are Crooked Men, Belles and perhaps a Punk Zombie for some hitting power. Crooked Men can deny some of the approach routes to the opponent and are decent fighters when Bolstered. So are Belles and they can pull the opponent off his course and bog him down once they engage him.

After these models die, you replace them with Punk Zombies, Flesh Constructs and such. If opponent drops counters or you're lucky with Mortimer/Molly combo and get multiple extra Counters, you can bring Rogue Necromancy - the ultimate in preparatory deadification of the opponent (1st step before undeadification, of course)...

Coincidentally this is where the strength of Avatar of Decay lies. Nicodem's Avatar can bring these Punk Zombies back real quick and en masse.

Obviously the Strategy is your prime concern here, so you can drop some Crooked Men or the Punk Zombie to grab Canines or Crooligans for the objective runs if the mission requires it... but then the Vultures will be even more valuable to you, as the chances of your Corpse Counters falling far away from Nicodem increases.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Golden]

I can't wait to try it out either, Molly and the necro machine are in progress atm. The thought of Mortimer getting the walk from his own Fresh Meat is so... efficient.