Simultaneous triggers

[von Clausewitz]

The following situation occurred today and I just wanted to be sure that we played it correctly:

I activated Lady Justice and cast Sword Style choosing to gain the Onslaught trigger. Lady Justice then charges Rafael LaCroix. She hits with a Mask in her total and declares Onslaught trigger. Rafael gets a Mask on his defense total and declares the Squeel! trigger.

I ruled that because Lady Justice was the acting model that she would get to make her free Kelsey strike before the 4" Squeel! push takes place. Furthermore, on Lady Justice's free melee strike I hit again, once again with a Mask in the total and so I declare Onslaught again. Now, the free melee attack from this Onslaught would then resolve before the Squeel! push that is still waiting to resolve, correct?

Like I said, I believe I ruled this correctly, but some confirmation would be much appreciated as the friend I was playing accepted the ruling but was not particularly pleased with it.

[Omenbringer]

Sometimes wish we could...

Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Oshova]

As I said earleir the "immediately" part of Onslaught is there to say that the "free strike" must occur immediately after the current attack has resolved and before any additional actions.

Does that mean that Eat Your Fill goes before Slow To Die though?

(0) Eat Your Fill: This model may immediately use this

Acion ater it kills a model with a melee atack. Heal all

wounds suffered by this model and immediately end its

acivaion.

Obviously this is specifically an extra action, but then so is Slow To Die. Your ruling says that "Immediately" literally means immediately. So therefore, if Killjoy kills Von Schill, he can heal his wounds and end his activation before Von Schill does Slow To Die and does a Healing Flip.

Also, Chompy's "One Master" says.

One Master: . . . This model may never be in play at the same time as the Dreamer. When this model is brought into play' date=' this model's controller must bury The Dreamer and this model activates immediately. Any time The Dreamer is brought into play, bury this model and active The Dreamer immediatley . . . [/quote']

So if a model kills LCB or The Dreamer, then the other model unburies, and activates before the killing model can do their trigger, or finish their activation. This isn't the way that has been ruled in the past, and that is what is making me think that your decision about Onslaught Vs Squee is wrong.

Lastly . . .

So, as both triggers say "After damaging" or "After being damaged" they would be simultaneous, and so would then be dealt with in the order they were declared. Meaning Squeel would go before Onslaught.

[Wolfgar]

Course the timing rules (RM p. 6) say that when simultaneous effects occur, they should resolve immediate effects first, then effects from the acting model, and then effects in activation order. So going by that, then Onslaught goes first. :confusedpuppet2

Argh.

[Omenbringer]

Seperate questions should be asked in seperate threads but...

Does that mean that Eat Your Fill goes before Slow To Die though?

Wouldn't go before Slow to Die because the model isn't actually killed until after it has completed the Slow to Die action.

Obviously this is specifically an extra action, but then so is Slow To Die. Your ruling says that "Immediately" literally means immediately. So therefore, if Killjoy kills Von Schill, he can heal his wounds and end his activation before Von Schill does Slow To Die and does a Healing Flip.

As I said above the Slow to Die action occurs first because the model isn't dead yet so Eat your Fill can't be satisfied. If the model heals then Eat your Fill will fizzle (this is why VonSchill and a few others are so difficult to actually take down).

Also, Chompy's "One Master" says.

So if a model kills LCB or The Dreamer, then the other model unburies, and activates before the killing model can do their trigger, or finish their activation. This isn't the way that has been ruled in the past, and that is what is making me think that your decision about Onslaught Vs Squee is wrong.

This is a completely different interaction since the trigger is part of the action that killed the Dreamer or Chompy and would resolve before the unburried models actions which are a result of being killed (resolving the completed action).

You can think I am wrong all you like it has already been confimred via the henchman side of the forum by a Rules Marshal.

Lastly . . .

So, as both triggers say "After damaging" or "After being damaged" they would be simultaneous, and so would then be dealt with in the order they were declared. Meaning Squeel would go before Onslaught.

They are not simultaneous, Squeel is a part of the initial action, Onslaught creates an entirely new action. Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Omenbringer]

Course the timing rules (RM p. 6) say that when simultaneous effects occur, they should resolve immediate effects first, then effects from the acting model, and then effects in activation order. So going by that, then Onslaught goes first. :confusedpuppet2

Argh.

It isn't a simulatneous effect, Squeel is part of the initial attack, Onslaught grants a completely new attack (however the previous one must be completed first).

[Oshova]

That is true, I missed that one . . . :confusedpuppet1

Also on page 6 it says "If an effect causes another effect to acitvate while it is being resolved, pause the first effect, completely execute the newly triggered effect, and then return to the first effect at the point it was paused."

This means I may have to trawl through to fine the One Master ruling I believe to exist, maybe that will shine some light on this problem.

[Omenbringer]

That is true, I missed that one . . . :confusedpuppet1

Also on page 6 it says "If an effect causes another effect to acitvate while it is being resolved, pause the first effect, completely execute the newly triggered effect, and then return to the first effect at the point it was paused."

This means I may have to trawl through to fine the One Master ruling I believe to exist, maybe that will shine some light on this problem.

You are completely ignoring the strike sequence rules on pages 42 and 43 of the rules manual. You cant unbury the dreamer or chompy until you have determined success and applied the duel results (and actually deteremined he has been killed). Triggers which are a part of the initial action have to be resolved prior to unburying the dreamer.

PS like I said this is a completely different interaction/ question so should have it's own thread OSHOVA (otherwise things get convuluted and confused very quickly)

Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Oshova]

I'm not questioning One Master here, I'm using it as a previous example of how Immediately doesn't mean immediately.

[Omenbringer]

I'm not questioning One Master here, I'm using it as a previous example of how Immediately doesn't mean immediately.

Then we are arguing the same point, immediately doesn't always mean immediate resolution (intrupting the current action) but establishes a sequence of resolution (outside of the current action resolution).

Also the timing rules that were mentioned earlier on Page 6 of the Rules Manual are in refrence to the turn sequence not the strike sequence which have there own set of rules on page 42-43 (general versus specific).

Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[von Clausewitz]

Omenbringer,

You explanation for immediately makes perfect sense and I concede that point.

Your explanation for having to resolve the entire strike, including squeel, before the next strike also makes sense. My issue is not with your explanations, and I thank you for your patience and diligence, but with the fact that the RM 6& 7 rules and example for pausing effects indicate that entire new duels can occur while a previous duel is still in the process of resolving.

Using the hangman's knot and slow to die example. If a model was killed by the damage and made a strike as their slow to die action then the strike would resolve during the resolution of Hangman's knot, before the push that is part of that original spell effect.

[Omenbringer]

Omenbringer,

You explanation for immediately makes perfect sense and I concede that point.

Your explanation for having to resolve the entire strike, including squeel, before the next strike also makes sense. My issue is not with your explanations, and I thank you for your patience and diligence, but with the fact that the RM 6& 7 rules and example for pausing effects indicate that entire new duels can occur while a previous duel is still in the process of resolving.

Using the hangman's knot and slow to die example. If a model was killed by the damage and made a strike as their slow to die action then the strike would resolve during the resolution of Hangman's knot, before the push that is part of that original spell effect.

Patience is a virtue of mine...

You must have posted while I was reformatting. The rules referenced on Page 6 of the Rules Manual are for the turn sequence and not the Strike sequence which has its own set of rules. The general rules on page 6 for the turn are trumped by the specific rules on page 42-43 for strikes.

[von Clausewitz]

In addition, because RM 6 states that simultaneous effects are resolved first by the acting model, and because both onslaught and squeel occur on damage bring dealt, making them simultaneous, then the acting model's effect, in this case onslaught, should resolve first. I ruled the way I did based upon the hangman's knot example's demonstration that a new duel can take place within an existing duel.

[Omenbringer]

In addition, because RM 6 states that simultaneous effects are resolved first by the acting model, and because both onslaught and squeel occur on damage bring dealt, making them simultaneous, then the acting model's effect, in this case onslaught, should resolve first. I ruled the way I did based upon the hangman's knot example's demonstration that a new duel can take place within an existing duel.

I understand the confusion from Page 6, but pages 42-43 are really the applicable rules (since they are for strike sequence and not turn sequence as the timing rules on page 6 are).

Though they both occur on damage they are definately not simultaneous effects. Squeel is part of the initial strike action resolution while Onslaught begins a completely new strike action (that has to occur as soon as the current one is completely resolved).

[Wolfgar]

I'm not seeing why Squeel is considered part of the initial resolution and Onslaught isn't.

[Omenbringer]

I'm not seeing why Squeel is considered part of the initial resolution and Onslaught isn't.

Because Squeel has to resolve during step f of the strike attack sequence resolution which occurs before the next strike action granted by Onslaught begins (immediately following the initial strikes completion).

Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Oshova]

Then we are arguing the same point, immediately doesn't always mean immediate resolution (intrupting the current action) but establishes a sequence of resolution (outside of the current action resolution).

Also the timing rules that were mentioned earlier on Page 6 of the Rules Manual are in refrence to the turn sequence not the strike sequence which have there own set of rules on page 42-43 (general versus specific).

*Thumbs up* I think I was getting something mixed up somewhere in what you were saying, so yes we are arguing the same point.

And I missed that bit about Pg 6 only being for turn sequence, that makes everything a lot simpler. If this was ruled to be the opposite, then Squeel (and other such triggers etc) would become a little less useful, and would move further from their intended use.

[diehard]

The only applicable thing I see relating to this on Pg. 43 is "The Triggers description will indicate when it's effects are applied." Because that's what we're talking about here, two separate Triggers.

My only issue is that the Timing sequence on Pg.6 specifically states "game Effects", I don't see where, I don't see where the "Pg. 6 is about Turn Timing" comes from.

I'm not arguing that some authority figure in a forum I never saw said otherwise Omenbringer (and I honestly appreciate you're continuing effort to explain your position), but that under the present wording, read as written, Onslaught would come first.

- Both Effects are triggered by damage, therefore are simultaneous.

- Then, Must before May

- Then Immediate

- Then Acting Player

I think you are trying to imply that Onslaught generates a Strike which is actually a new action, but by that token isn't the push a movement action?

[Omenbringer]

The only applicable thing I see relating to this on Pg. 43 is "The Triggers description will indicate when it's effects are applied." Because that's what we're talking about here, two separate Triggers.

My only issue is that the Timing sequence on Pg.6 specifically states "game Effects", I don't see where, I don't see where the "Pg. 6 is about Turn Timing" comes from.

Everything that is being refrenced on page 6 is about the turn sequence and when things would end during the turn, nothing specific as to Strike sequences (which have their own specific rules on pages 42-43). Specific rules always trump general

I'm not arguing that some authority figure in a forum I never saw said otherwise Omenbringer (and I honestly appreciate you're continuing effort to explain your position), but that under the present wording, read as written, Onslaught would come first.

I do regret that you all cant see the ruling on the henchman side (and since it cant be cited it losses a lot of its effectiveness).

- Both Effects are triggered by damage, therefore are simultaneous.

- Then, Must before May

- Then Immediate

- Then Acting Player

Squeel is a must effect (you dont have a choice to do it once triggered) so still comes before Onslaught in your reference. That is unless of course the squeeling model died.

I think you are trying to imply that Onslaught generates a Strike which is actually a new action, but by that token isn't the push a movement action?

Onslaught does generate a new strike action where as squeel is a movement effect of the previous strikes resolution (not an action in itself). They are not simultaneous events.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Omenbringer

[von Clausewitz]

The only applicable thing I see relating to this on Pg. 43 is "The Triggers description will indicate when it's effects are applied." Because that's what we're talking about here, two separate Triggers.

My only issue is that the Timing sequence on Pg.6 specifically states "game Effects", I don't see where, I don't see where the "Pg. 6 is about Turn Timing" comes from.

I'm not arguing that some authority figure in a forum I never saw said otherwise Omenbringer (and I honestly appreciate you're continuing effort to explain your position), but that under the present wording, read as written, Onslaught would come first.

- Both Effects are triggered by damage, therefore are simultaneous.

- Then, Must before May

- Then Immediate

- Then Acting Player

I think you are trying to imply that Onslaught generates a Strike which is actually a new action, but by that token isn't the push a movement action?

This is precisely the point of view that my arguments are coming from.

[diehard]

Everything that is being refrenced on page 6 is about the turn sequence and when things would end during the turn, nothing specific as to Strike sequences (which have their own specific rules on pages 42-43). Specific rules always trump general

I do regret that you all cant see the ruling on the henchman side (and since it cant be cited it losses a lot of its effectiveness).

Squeel is a must effect (you dont have a choice to do it once triggered) so still comes before Onslaught in your reference. That is unless of course the squeeling model died.

Onslaught does generate a new strike action where as squeel is a movement effect of the previous strikes resolution (not an action in itself). They are not simultaneous events.

As I mentioned , the only relevant reference in the Strike sequence on 42-43 that involves the resolution of Triggers is that the Triggers description will state when it goes into effect. I'm not really clear here on what you're actually referencing on those pages. Sorry, these are new rules to me.

And I still don't get where you are referring to page 6 as referring to the turns timing where it specifically states "Game Effects (anything that changes the state of a model.)

Also, I didn't see must in the description of Squee, I had taken it that Must would be stated in a description if compulsory. I can see that it would be, but I can't find anything else in the book at this time further defines implied states of must and may.

Undoubtedly rules timing is a tricky area in all games, the more intricate the game the more intricate the timing.

[Omenbringer]

As I mentioned , the only relevant reference in the Strike sequence on 42-43 that involves the resolution of Triggers is that the Triggers description will state when it goes into effect. I'm not really clear here on what you're actually referencing on those pages. Sorry, these are new rules to me.

Mainly referencing the progression of things during a strike, declaration of triggers occur during step D (before success is determined), success is determined during step E, and finally Duel Results are applied during step F (triggers resolve here). Though Squell and Onslaught resolve during this portion (not really simultaneously), Squeel which is a must move effect (see below) resolves first because it is a result of the previous strike, then Onslaught causes a completely new strike action sequence to begin (which is immediately after the current one has resolved, all the steps have been gone thru and damage has been dealt ending the current strike action).

And I still don't get where you are referring to page 6 as referring to the turns timing where it specifically states "Game Effects (anything that changes the state of a model.)

The rules on Page 6 are general game rules describing game effects occuring during the turn (end Closing Phase being referenced several times) the timing is trumped by the specific rules of the Strike Sequence timing. It does have some application, specifically once you get to the Must vs May portion but for resolving strikes the relevant rules are on page 42-43 (and those will trump the general rules on page 6).

Also, I didn't see must in the description of Squee, I had taken it that Must would be stated in a description if compulsory. I can see that it would be, but I can't find anything else in the book at this time further defines implied states of must and may.

Squeel implies must by its wording "After this model is damaged by an enemy melee attack, push it 4” directly away from the attacker" there is no option not to perform the push (it must be resolved after damage is determined after step F, you cant choose not to do it once the trigger has been declared in step D). Onslaught begins a new Strike action upon damage immediately after it has been determined (and ending the previous strike sequence).

Undoubtedly rules timing is a tricky area in all games, the more intricate the game the more intricate the timing.

Definately agree, I still have a turn timing question (involving Hamelin and the Gremlin Taxidermist) waiting resolution myself.

At this point though I have beat this horse to :dead: and it seems that some will only be appeased when a Rules Marshal weighs in. Resonably confident at least one of them has been lurking in the shadows (lets hold are breath and wait to see which chooses to confirm).

Edited January 3, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Q'iq'el]

Omen, though I agree with your conclusions, you go too far in some points. "Must" and "may" definitely have to be explicit - you cannot argue there's a "must occur" effect implied - that not only isn't how that works, but it also could potentially be argued about almost any effect out there.

The decisive thing here is the old ruling about resolving triggers causing old Duels. There's really nothing in the RM as far as I can tell, so it makes little sense trying to bend it together. I'll post the link as soon as I find it, but I'm surprised nobody even bothered looking for it after 5 pages of it being mentioned (I understand not everybody can do it at the moment - myself I was away from any decent computer for a while, but there've been so many posts in the thread by now...)

[Omenbringer]

Omen' date=' though I agree with your conclusions, you go too far in some points. "Must" and "may" definitely have to be explicit - you cannot argue there's a "must occur" effect implied - that not only isn't how that works, but it also could potentially be argued about almost any effect out there.[/quote']Once the squeel trigger has been declared there is no option not to perform it (or to vary the distance) everything in the description is in the affirmative tone implying the must, I do agree that the V2 cards should have included the must in the wording (but it wouldn't be the only thing that got missed in the update).

This would not have gone to 5 pages if I could link to the henchman ruling about this exact same thing. Old ruling about resolving triggers or not, this particular interaction has already been confirmed for the henchman (so we wait for a Rules Marshal to reconfirm for the public).

Edited January 3, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Q'iq'el]

Once the squeel trigger has been declared there is no option not to perform it (or to vary the distance) everything in the description is in an affirmative tone implying the must, I do agree that the V2 cards should have included the must in the wording (but it wouldn't be the only thing that got missed in the update).

Squee appears also on Book 2 cards and even Book 3 ones and the wording is still the same.

Not having the choice if you do it or not doesn't imply you "must" do it first. If must is not explicitly stated on the card, it may happen your opponent executes his effect first, and only then you have to execute your own.

I think that is the role (in general) "must" plays in the effect wording. Just like "immediately" consistently means that the effect happens before someone else activates, "must" is there to define the priority level of the effect, should there be a conflict.

But more importantly, a "must" has been placed in all the triggers where it really matters. Arguing for "implied" must not only makes the issue foggy, but creates a huge potential for endless arguments at the table - instead of precise wording based definition you start arguing intentions and feelings of the players.

[Q'iq'el]

Hmm, I have reviewed the past rulings and I've found a new one:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=230593&postcount=40

It is definitely a fresher ruling than the one I remember and it goes against everything I argued in this thread.

It seems Squee and Onslaught are actually simultaneous - both happen after damaging the target.

In the timing sequence Kelthos gives "damaging" is an entire sequence of actions starting with damage flip and ending when the resulting Wds are applied. Even getting killed and triggers caused by it happen before the "damaging" step ends.

Things that happen before damage or when damaged can happen earlier though.

Unfortunately when it comes to resolving Run Through vs. Boom (the linked thread) and after-damage pushes vs. on-kill effects like Book the situation is clear - when/after killed happens before "after being damaged" or "after damaging" (according to the linked ruling), and Run Through is something you continue after you finish the entire Strike Sequence anyway.

Here we have a more complex situation I think.

- "must" vs. "may" order doesn't work here, because 1. both effects don't contain the word "must" and 2. even if we consider it is implied, both models have no choice but to execute their declared triggers (the strike isn't optional).

- immediate effects first, then effects by the acting player, then remaining effects. As much as "immediately" in the Outslaught wording may suggest one of the effect is more immediate than the other, I think "immediate effects" is a gaming term and a category defined in the effects section of the Rules Manual. In fact both of these Triggers cause immediate effects, because additional strike and push are execute-once type of effects which leave no lasting effect on the models.

That puts us in acting player first, other players in activation order I think.

So I'm changing the camp until I see a ruling saying otherwise. I must say in recent month or so there's been so many little changes uncovered in the Rules Manual, I now think I may be playing great number of rules wrong - only because I remember old rulings. We really need some way to indicate obsolete rulings and a way to get immediately updated when the new ones appear (as they are easy to miss right now, nested deep in the threads we don't always follow).

Perhaps a searchable "flag" for active rulings and a RSS feed for all the posts made by Rule Marshalls?

Edited January 3, 2012 by Q'iq'el