When is a spell successfully cast?

[magicpockets]

Okay, a thread came up recently (click here) which started a debate about spell casting and requirements. At first I thought it was some OTT rules lawyering, but a couple of things in a game last night made me wonder if we could get some guidance as to how some older rules fit in with the new approach to spells. Specifically -

1. When is a spell classed as "successfully cast"

Is it -

Beat CC and pay CR -> spell is cast -> opponent tries to resist

or

Beat CC and pay CR -> opponent tries to resist -> if fail, spell is "cast"

For example, Levi has a trigger which gives him a card when a spell is successfully cast. Is that once he beats the total and meets the requirements, or only if his opponent fails to resist it?

2. What constitutes a "Casting Requirement"

Using Levi again, he has spells which do wounds on him as a part of the resolution. Does he take them before or after his opponent tries to resist the spell? Old rules would say he only takes them if the enemy fails to resist, but if they're now classed as a "Casting requirement" (like Hamelin sacrificing a model or Collette discarding a soulstone) he should take them before his opponent flips to resist.

If things like this are now "casting requirements", is there a way to define what aspects of a spell are "casting requirements"? Is it as simple as "something which costs you, i.e. losing models, wounds, tokens, soulstones" or is there more to it than that?

For example, is the free walk as a part of Menace classed as a casting requirement? Do you do the walk if you beat the casting total or only if it isn't resisted? (This is from the other thread and, whilst I didn't agree with the need to ask it at first, now appears to be a valid question)

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Hope the above makes sense guys and I've been able to explain where the confusion has come from.

Edited December 30, 2011 by magicpockets

[Keltheos]

This is a shift from the definition of 'successfully cast' pre-Rules Manual.

Successfully cast occurs when the Spell's caster wins the Casting Duel and meets any additional casting requirements for that spell. A model Resisting that spell doesn't negate its successful casting, just removes the effects of it.

For instance, (the wizard did it example) a character wouldn't need to dodge (resist) a fireball that wasn't successfully cast. Using Obey as an example may feel like it should be only after the Resist is failed, but the rule applies across spells, so a model can successfully cast Obey, but then have it Resisted and it still counts toward the once per turn attempt, so be sure your target won't be shaking it off when you do.

[Wolfgar]

A model Resisting that spell doesn't negate its successful casting, just removes the effects of it.

All effects, or just the effects affecting the resisting model?

[Keltheos]

The resisting model (or models if more than one need to resist). Got a for instance you want to explore on that one?

[Wolfgar]

The resisting model (or models if more than one need to resist). Got a for instance you want to explore on that one?

Sure. The Guild Guard Captain has the spell Menace, which is a Willpower Resist. The effects of the spell are that the Captain is moved up to 4" towards the target (which is an movement effect on the Captain) and the target can't take any move actions (which is an effect on the target.). If the spell is successfully cast and successfully resisted, does the Captain still move?

[Keltheos]

Ah, good example, a two-parter effect. Well played.

Want to get you a solid response so going to talk to the other RMs on the multi-part Spells like Menace. I don't want to give you a "well, the intention is..." answer off the cuff.

[Wolfgar]

I eagerly await the answer.

[magicpockets]

Using Obey as an example may feel like it should be only after the Resist is failed, but the rule applies across spells, so a model can successfully cast Obey, but then have it Resisted and it still counts toward the once per turn attempt, so be sure your target won't be shaking it off when you do.

great, just what Neverborn need, another cuddle after Alps and Nekima... They're almost unplayable now...

[Ratty]

great, just what Neverborn need, another nerf after Alps and Nekima... They're almost unplayable now...

It's always been this way and I've never had a problem winning with Zoraida. There were also a lot of people that never played the Nekima or Alp lists and still did well with Neverborn.

are you being sarcastic?

[magicpockets]

are you being sarcastic?

[Oshova]

If Magic posts something on the forum, your first port of call is Sarcasm Land, to check if he has visited there lately. =p

Also, I hope ruling doesn't take as long as the Hoffman - Reactivate one.

[Keltheos]

Also, I hope ruling doesn't take as long as the Hoffman - Reactivate one.

Ok, to the back of the line with this rules question!!