General and Neverborn Rules Questions

[eBadger]

Apologies for any of these that are already discussed - I have done searches for each, but haven't turned up anything satisfactory, and some are admittedly just to affirm I have it right before I start playing with my newest force.

Ideally I'd love a page number or errata reference for questions, but would appreciate any help.

1. Graverobbers & Corpse Counters: Can a model pick up a corpse counter outside of its activation? For instance, a blood shaman is in B2B with a terror tot; tot is killed (generating a counter and allowing the shaman to rush its attacker). Can the shaman pick up the counter before its push?

2. Drain blood is a 0 action; can it only be used once per model per activation? And only if they still have a 0 action available? Another player was using brood mother for Lilith and also picking up counters on the same turn, which seems wrong but I don't entirely understand the need for the wording allowing use 'immediately'.

3. To confirm, with spells whose effects have no clear expiration (such as Growth Spurt by Nekima, and Blood Frenzy/Blood Magic/Potent Blood by the BBS) last until the end of the game? There's no default expiration?

4. Rare models: the book states only that you cannot HIRE more than the number listed (p. 96). However, to my understanding you can HAVE more than that number if, for instance, you matured several young or summoned lots of lelu. I've seen comments contradicting this, though - what's the real skinny?

5. The Lelu/Lilitu pair's healing: if a lelu at full wounds recieves a healing effect, can a lilitu heal from it?

Thanks much for any help!

[Tiny]

1. If you're in base to base you can pick it up anyway. I'm fairly sure you pick it up if you push over it if you werent in base contact say.

2. Models have 2 general action points and 1 (0) action each unless otherwise stated. Lillith has fast so can make 3 general action points but still only 1 (0) action. So it's either brood mother or drain blood not both.

3. If a spell's effect has no defined end date it expires in the end closing phase of that turn. Effects that last until the end of the encounter specifically say so.

4. The rules manual states the number after rare is the maximum amount of models you can hire AND have in play at one time. So maximum of 2 mature nephilim in play at one time in a scrap.

5. Good question actually not sure what would happen in this situation.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

5. Yes.

[Kadeton]

5. No.

Healing cannot take a model above its printed Wounds stat, and "Any Wounds healed over the printed stat value are lost" (RM, pg. 48). The Lelu at full health does not heal any wounds.

Same Malignant Force means that the Lilitu heals the same number of Wounds as the Lelu, i.e. none.

[Cunning]

5. No.

Healing cannot take a model above its printed Wounds stat, and "Any Wounds healed over the printed stat value are lost" (RM, pg. 48). The Lelu at full health does not heal any wounds.

Same Malignant Force means that the Lilitu heals the same number of Wounds as the Lelu, i.e. none.

This is my understanding as well.

[Headcase2]

1. From memory, but I think you only pick up counters you're in base contact with / move into base contact with during your activation.

[Ozz]

1. From memory, but I think you only pick up counters you're in base contact with / move into base contact with during your activation.

Unless an ability states otherwise which i believe Nekima has an aura allowing her to generate a counter if within 3" or so of a model killed.

[eBadger]

3. If a spell's effect has no defined end date it expires in the end closing phase of that turn. Effects that last until the end of the encounter specifically say so.

I've been trying to find something regarding this, and have only found only the opposite: the basic book p. 44 says effects which 'indicate' an end in the start/end closing phase expire, which seems to indicate those which don't, don't. Can anyone clarify/cite a source? Just need to know if Nekima has to keep casting Growth Spurt and if the shaman's blood magic is as nice as it sounds.

[Kadeton]

I've been trying to find something regarding this, and have only found only the opposite: the basic book p. 44 says effects which 'indicate' an end in the start/end closing phase expire, which seems to indicate those which don't, don't. Can anyone clarify/cite a source? Just need to know if Nekima has to keep casting Growth Spurt and if the shaman's blood magic is as nice as it sounds.

RM Page 32, 3) Closing Phase, B. Resolve Effects Step. All Action and Spell effects which do not indicate a duration end during this step.

[eBadger]

RM Page 32, 3) Closing Phase, B. Resolve Effects Step. All Action and Spell effects which do not indicate a duration end during this step.

Awesome, thank you!

[allan255]

5. No.

Healing cannot take a model above its printed Wounds stat, and "Any Wounds healed over the printed stat value are lost" (RM, pg. 48). The Lelu at full health does not heal any wounds.

Same Malignant Force means that the Lilitu heals the same number of Wounds as the Lelu, i.e. none.

Sorry to resurrect the question but the problem arise in my last game and i couldn't find any official post about this.

From my reading, if the Lelu is full health, he is still healed 2 wounds, but this wounds are lost because it exceeds its maximum health.

Is it possible to have a clear and definitive answer ?

[allan255]

So, no indication to know if lilitu heals the same number of wounds before or after the wounds healed over the printed stat value are lost ?

[Q'iq'el]

So, no indication to know if lilitu heals the same number of wounds before or after the wounds healed over the printed stat value are lost ?

It's in the wording of the Same Malignant Force ability. The ability says a friendly Lilitu heals the same # of Wd Lelu has healed. If Lelu heals 0 Wd (because he is at full Wd), Lilitu also heals 0 Wd. There's no indication otherwise.

[allan255]

If he heals 0 ... why have a rule saying "Any Wounds healed over the printed stat value are lost" ?

It should be something like "Can't be healed more Wounds that the difference between printed stat value and current value"

With the current sentence, Wounds over the printed stat are lost, but they are stil healed wounds.

[Q'iq'el]

First of all, you have to remember many sentences in Malifaux rules are just reminders. They don't indicate anything other than that.

Secondly, you are quoting the general rule for Healing, which doesn't even conflict with Lelu & Lilitu's wording.

1. In case of Lelu the wounds above his maximum Wd stat are lost, just like with any general healing.

2. In case of Lelu, the wounds that get "transfered" to Lilitu are only these wounds, which he actually healed (which haven't been lost)

In other words:

1. Heal -> 2. Wd restored -> 3. # of Wd from step 2 gets transfered to Lilitu

You are trying to transfer the Heal from step 1... but this is not what Lelu's rule says. It says you heal him first and then Lilitu can heal for the same # of Wd he managed to heal.

[allan255]

First of all, you have to remember many sentences in Malifaux rules are just reminders. They don't indicate anything other than that.

Secondly, you are quoting the general rule for Healing, which doesn't even conflict with Lelu & Lilitu's wording.

I refer on the general rule for Healing, because i can't see any other rule (or reminder) on healing.

1. In case of Lelu the wounds above his maximum Wd stat are lost, just like with any general healing.

I totally agree with that.

2. In case of Lelu, the wounds that get "transfered" to Lilitu are only these wounds, which he actually healed (which haven't been lost)

That's my problem. Perhaps it's because english is not my mother tongue, but in Malignant Force ability wording, i can't find how to make the difference between the "Healed Wounds" and the "Realy Healed Wounds after excess is lost".

I'm not in favor in an interpretation or an other, i just want to be able to say "it works this way because ... " and not because "it's logic, i think game developer wanted it that way".

[Q'iq'el]

That's my problem. Perhaps it's because english is not my mother tongue, but in Malignant Force ability wording, i can't find how to make the difference between the "Healed Wounds" and the "Realy Healed Wounds after excess is lost".

I'm not in favor in an interpretation or an other, i just want to be able to say "it works this way because ... " and not because "it's logic, i think game developer wanted it that way".

Healed Wounds are the Wounds that actually have been healed. The number of Wd the model can heal its wounds for is something that exist only before the Healing is applied (imperfect) - as soon as you apply and get # of Wd healed (perfect), you lose the over-healing bit from the Healing effect.

When I say the wording is clear I mean that by using past tense the rule implies you can transfer only the # of Wds actually healed and not the potential # of Wd the effect might have healed for in other circumstances.

[Jewomie]

As an avid Lillith Player, I must agree with Q'iq'el. Lilitu would only heal the number of wounds Lelu healed.

The way i explained it while helping someone try out the twins was this: (assuming you use the bullet holes to keep track of wounds like we do) "Lelu can be healed for 1 or 50 wounds, it doesn't matter, Lilitu is only going to heal the number of wounds you actually wiped off of Lelu's card. So, he has only 1 would, but is healed 2... you take your paper towel and wipe a single wound off of him, then you get to wipe the same number off of lilitu... so wipe one off her card as well and BAM you're done"

[allan255]

Healed Wounds are the Wounds that actually have been healed.

Looks like everyone in here ok with that, but from what rule ? Or should i go with it and just say "that's what everyone in forum is saying".

Jewomie : i understand what you're saying, i just can't explain from wording why it's like this.

[Jewomie]

it's like that because Lilitu can only heal the number of wounds that Lelu heals... so if he didn't heal the wounds, then she wont either... it says in the wording that she can heal the "same number"

[Q'iq'el]

Looks like everyone in here ok with that, but from what rule ? Or should i go with it and just say "that's what everyone in forum is saying".

I'd say it's the grammar. Because the rule speaks about wounds "healed", it speaks about past-perfect. The action has been completed.

It could speak about "amount being healed" or "amount about to be healed" to indicate the transfer of the Healing should happen before you apply it to Lelu, but it speaks about situation after applying the Healing effect.

[snord]

I think Lilitu and Lelu are not strong enough as they are. So I would like to humbly request a change in the rules that would allow they (and only they) to be healed past their initial wounds, up to, but not beyond, infinity. This would also have the nice side effect of solving this problem as the original question would be moot, since they would always heal.

PS: where is that disclaimer? "this post was made for fun and should not be taken seriously in any way"...