Why is miniature gaming a niche market

[super_bruno]

Hello! I'm pretty new to miniature games (Malifaux is the first I've actually played, aside from Battlelore), I've been looking longingly at miniature games for a long time, I've got into boardgaming some years ago, I've read a lot of review comments, discussions, arguing and the like, and began to form an opinion about why it continue to be a niche market and why it's difficult to attract new players.

I think there are a few points:

1- I think in general the gaming community and even more so the miniatures community assumes too much. A game is based on a lot of concept, and most of the time, the players don't introduce those concepts to the newbie. They assume that the newbie knows those concepts. He may know some of those, but maybe not all of them. Sometimes, even the rulebook assumes too much. Let's take Malifaux. Much of the game revolve around the fate deck. For most gamers, they know what a deck is, what a hand is, what a discard pile is, shuffling, hot to read the card, etc. So you explain quickly how the cards affect the game to the new guy, put the models on the table and begin to play, explaining while playing.

But I think it's not the good way to do this, as I've learned when I taught my girlfriend to play. Never having played a game myself but having read lots of rulebooks, rpgs and the like. I was familiar with the concept of stats and special abilities for a character, with important units vs grunts, etc. So we got to play our first game, me explaining all the while. Then came the moment when I realised I was running toward a wall. She wanted to cast a spell. I explained: you have to flip a card, add it to you casting stat and beat the score to cast it. But it will fail if you don't also have the symbols required. The grayed one means it's already in the total because of your stat and blablabla. She just didn't get it.

Why because she didn't know what a stat is supposed to be. She didn't know how to read the result on the card. She didn't know that the symbol was as important as the symbol. She didn't know about range, etc, etc. I had assumed to much. I started again, on another night from the beginning. THe real basics. First lesson, the card flip. No hand of card, no discard pile, just a deck, and flip a card. And how to read the result. Once that concept is learned, we moved to lesson two. Twisting fate. What the little square symbol mean, what the - or + sign inside the little square mean, and how it affect your flip. Lesson 3: Cheating fate... etc, etc, etc. It's not fun, it takes a long time, but it is necessary for her to be able to play and to have some fun.

For those having a hard time following. Let's say you want to learn to play the piano. First class: Put your fingers there and there, push on the keys. GReat! You've learn a C# Major chord. Practice that. Woa, wait a minute! What's a C, what does major mean, what does # mean. Why are there black and white keys? Why aren't there black keys everywhere. You see what I mean?

2- Intimidating

Remember the first you walked into your FLGS? You have all those weird guys with tape measures, books, cards and superb tables full of miniatures eyeing you suspiciously. You overhear, those to guys at the back arguing over rules: "You have to resolve magic first!" "No poison first!" "Look at page 153, rule 89.4 it says..."

I think at that point I turned back and left, never to come back. From my experience gamers don't usually make good sellers. Part of it because of my point #1, they assume if you are there, then you know what WH40K, WFB and warmachine. When you ask, what are those guy playing: the usual answer is "That's Warmachine". OK, so what's Warmachine? "Well, it's like WH40K, but on a skirmish level, with a steampunk theme". Most people will just leave by then.

I think the proper answer should be: "Are you familiar with boardgames and miniature wargaming?" If no, then maybe lead the customer to an ongoing game a try to explain what the basic of miniature wargaming is.

3- Costly.

When in the store you ask about the price of getting into a game is. Most of the time, they will tell you the price for a starter box. Most of the time they will fail to tell you that a starter box is just good enough to learn to game, but you will quickly need to invest more. They will fail to tell you the price of the rulebook. They won't talk about the cost associated with painting (brushes, paint, tools, glue, pinning material, etc...), they won't tell you about the cost associated with buying the terrain to make your own table at home, etc. When you find out about all those by yourself, you usually give up. Spending 500$ on a game just to find out if I like it? No way.

4- Difficult (painting, modelling, terrain).

This point is mostly aimed and the companies selling the games. It is difficult to get into miniature wargaming. Models are unpainted most of the time (when the are prepainted, the game is usually mediocre). You have to assemble the models and most are a pain in the ass to assemble. You have to build your own terrain or paint the pieces you've bought.

I have to congratulate Worldworks and Wyrd for releasing Terraclips. That is the way to go to bring more players to the game. Make relatively cheap and beautiful terrain available. No need for skills and many hours. Just punch and assemble. Genius!

5- Not targeted to casual gamers.

As a casual gamer, I want to play games with my girlfriend, with my friends and most would be interested in miniature wargaming. Except the investment required in time, money and skills. Also, I've heard a lot of comments like "well head to your FLGS and have a go". Bad advice. If you read my point number 2, you know I won't want to go. And I don't want to play with some guy I don't know, I want to play with my friends. I want to play when we both feel like it. Not plan it a few weeks in advance.

Now I have to be critical toward Wyrd at this point. One one hand, they target more casual gamers with Terraclips. On the other hand, they sell you unbalanced crews in a box. So as a casual customer, I download the rules manual, get two deck of playing cards, buy two boxes that appeals to me and my girlfriend and play. Ooops big mistake. She got that really difficult to play crew, and the other box is inneffective against it. You find out on the forum that crews are not balanced against each other, but on a faction basis. You learn that the crew from the box is not sufficient, but have to get some more models to be effective.

I think balance is vital for casual gamers. Why? Because casual gamers won't buy more than one box. Maybe much later they will, but not for a while. And a casual gamer will assume that if the company is selling a crew in a box, it's because it's playable, against every other box, without the need to add something to the crew. So if a casual gamer find out that one of his crew have a really hard time winning against the other, will he rush out and buy another box. Of course not, you'll find those badly painted models for sale on ebay, along with a book and all the painting material. Never to touch a miniature wargame again.

I think that some information could have been added to the box. Or the rule book. Point out which crew is suited to play against which. Which is suitable for beginners. And mention that it's a starter box, that will quickly need to be expanded.

[super_bruno]

Mmm, an quick suggestion for future wargames. I know learning by yourself the strength and weakness of your crew is fun, by why not make a crew for dummies list or something. With colors specifying which model serves which role. For example green model is for melee, orange for ranged, red for support, blue for magic, etc, etc. And add some crew building tips like: A balanced crew should have 2 green models, 1 red, 1 orange, etc, etc.

[WyvernEye]

Most hobbies i know of require rules and investments. (Heck I just played kickball with my son and his 2 friends and apparently I have the rules all wrong!) Play golf? Good set of clubs is.. couple hundred I guess. Balls that get lost? Green feees or whatever they charge to use the coarse? IT adds up.

Model building? Cheaper then our games, but once built, it sits on a shelf. Rather isoating hobby less you are in some hobby group.

Now, are these games hard to learn? Depends on the person and thier commitment. My son desperately wanted to paint. Then wanted to play warhammer. So, start small! He started with plastic single piece figs. Taught him how to use a brush and a few hints and off he went. Wanted warhammer games. Heck, he knew movment and ranges before we even played; used my minis to fight againt his Pirate legos. Skinks and skeles vs. Capt Jack SParrow. HE knew how far a javelin went and how far the guys moved.

So time to teach. IF someone is really interested, you take the time to do small steps, as you did with your girfriend. I took out phsycology. Took out alot of special rules. Say Malifaux model A does a death back flip when this symbo and that score are used. Forget that. 1ap move. 1ap attack. Now your turn. Next game, lets add magic. Whoa, hey, i am getting the hang of this. lets add some simple psych now.. Etc.

My son is now 9 and had played warhammer for 2 years. Win tournies with his 1500pt Skaven? not yet. Blink and he'll take you down hard- I garuntee that! He playes against my freinds 2 nieces that are... 13/14 I believe.

Like anything else, take it slow. Use prepainted minis from the local store, ebay. Buy some allready painted minis. take some small boxes out back and spray them black and cut out some windows, throw some rocks from outside for hills.

I am just learning Mali myself so dont have too many hints. Yet at teh same time, I have to unlearn other game mechanics... Do I need a moral check since my Crew leader died? Cb? Ht? What do I use to hit you again? Now i know it's like playing war with cards as a kid; but you get a hand to cheat with...

Many places have "mali night' W40k night" that encourage newbies. iam a seasoned gamer but welcomed teh Mali night to get my feet wet.

Went to try an online MMO? MMOP? whatever the other day. Didnt have anyone helping me move, cast, etc. Oh, only $15 a month. $175 a year, and at the end I have....0. Well, for $175 a year I can get some figs, trade them when done, or teach my son. Wonder what Mali crew he likes...?

:-)

Jay

[WyvernEye]

Side response-

A group of my friends play 40k. Not one of thier armies cost over $100, but they field close to 2k. Thier terrain? Ripped boxes sprayed black, some silver. That casing from that burnt out alternator? Great bunker thingy. Rocks from outside. There tables look decent. they have LOADS of fun, one of them having much to throw at the hobby. ( I am fortunate enogh to make my hjobby pay for itself so cant say the same) but you can do these games on teh cheap!

J

[Shae-Konnit]

Mmm, an quick suggestion for future wargames. I know learning by yourself the strength and weakness of your crew is fun, by why not make a crew for dummies list or something. With colors specifying which model serves which role. For example green model is for melee, orange for ranged, red for support, blue for magic, etc, etc. And add some crew building tips like: A balanced crew should have 2 green models, 1 red, 1 orange, etc, etc.

I thought stuff like that gets discussed on the boards all the time. I'd certainly prefer that to buying models to reach the same conclusion

But yeah, like WyvernEye said, it's all down to the individual in the end.

Hell, I learned 40k by observation and I also learned all the rules this way so never had to buy a rulebook - just the codices of the armies I liked. Think I was about 10 at the time.

[super_bruno]

Mmm, I guess that didn't come across the way I intended. It was not me complaining about the hobby, it was rather a reflection on why I think wargaming is not more mainstream.

I do enjoy painting, and have been painting on a off for about 20 years now.

I'm no good with terrain and don't have much patience for that, or much room in the appartment, so I'm really happy with terraclips!

I have no problems with the rules or stats or whatever. Except those crew boxes that can give the impression that all you'll ever need is one crew box and you'll be happy.

I think Malifaux is one of the most accessible serious miniatures wargame out there. First the size of the crew needed is small. So keep the cost down. Models are superb. Each crew has it's theme, so there is something for everybody. Even my girlfriend wants to learn this game and that's saying something. I think the overall feeling of the game is more casual. It's not like other games where you have to think about mobility, and support, heavy fire, long range and all that logistic. You can build your crew like this, but it's much less an obligation than other games.

[Justin]

Side response-

A group of my friends play 40k. Not one of thier armies cost over $100, but they field close to 2k.

I have no idea how this is possible.

[Ciaran]

I have no idea how this is possible.

Paper cut outs.

Playing some SmashHammer 40,000 is pretty sweet.

[WyvernEye]

Armies for less than $100? Used and need reapair :-) Granted, it's not as fun as the shiney new box and extra bits, but sometimes that's all ya can do! WWII tanks for the IG. Get on ebay, yard sale, etc. Theres usually someone looking to get out or start a new army. When you dont have a job and still want to play you find ways. But it's amounst freinds so... as long as it's close everyones good. Most of thier stuff is from the actual system, just some pricier stuff they find alts.

Super_bruno- didnt thing you were complaining :-) Was trying ot offer suggestions/help. DOnt know if I succeeded?? Hahah

I think these games are more accepted also. Used to be people thought i was one of those Satanists playing these games. Now I am suprised by how many people know of the games or are willing to try. SLOWLY i tink they are becoming more mainsteam. Just have to watch out for the "WOW" and such where people get sucked in as it's easier to play from the couch.. Oh well!

J

[super_bruno]

Super_bruno- didnt thing you were complaining :-) Was trying ot offer suggestions/help. DOnt know if I succeeded?? Hahah

I think these games are more accepted also. Used to be people thought i was one of those Satanists playing these games. Now I am suprised by how many people know of the games or are willing to try. SLOWLY i tink they are becoming more mainsteam. Just have to watch out for the "WOW" and such where people get sucked in as it's easier to play from the couch.. Oh well!

J

Thanks! I must say I learned the lesson the hard way about miniature games. But glad to know it's getting more mainstream than it used to be. Maybe we can thank games like Memoir 44, Battlelore and Heroscape for that. They are still miniature games but aimed to family and casual players.

I just hope that the big games will follow some of those ideas and try to appeal a bit more to the masses. As I said, Wyrd took a great step in that direction with their crew boxes and terraclips. The boxes are not entirely successful, but terraclips are great. In 1 hour I was able to construct two 3-stories buildings connected by a bridge on the third floor. It would have taken me many months to do the same the old fashioned way. And it would be much uglier.

[WyvernEye]

Battlelore and Memoire are my sons fav; easy to play and fit well in a car when we visit relatives. Good ways to intro someone into figure games.

Skirmish level games like Mali, and Necromunda and that other GW game that escapes my mind are also good as tehy rely on just a handful of figs.

I am amazed when I drop the line- "so, you play any stategic or tabletop games" at how many people have, or at least seen them now a days. Or wear my "Dork" shirts as my wife calls them and see who says "Hey, I play that game!!!" :-)

J

[ThePandaDirector]

I wrote 906 words before starting again, but obviously I can't avoid writing walls of text.

I first got into miniatures when I was about 6, but naturally didn't really play actual games. As a kid, when you see orcs, zombies, knights and demons, you just see them as a superior toy. Honestly I must have £1000s of ruined models that I bought, glued, never bothered painting (or drowned in paint), then left on the floor to get stood on. When I started I didn't paint my minis, I didn't have terrain, didn't even have a feckin' table, just cleared a space on the carpated floor and played 40K without army lists, special rules, etc (my brother always seemed to win with his 4 greater demons... except when the cat won) LotR was easily the most accessible for me (despite by then knowing about 40K), and even though I played a bit of Inquisitor, I could never understand Warhammer.

I first gamed outside my house in a GW (aged about 12) where I was taught Warhammer for the first time in a demo. I went on to collect a 10,000pts Chaos Army, fully (and horribly) painted. I was intimidated by the gamers there at first, but it was such a strong and diverse community (I met an American there that 5 years later taught me history) that I went in there almost every day for 2 years (if only to talk to the staff). I remember the first manager taught me about probability (he was trying to teach me the real fundamentals of gaming), while one of the other staff members taught me to paint (I never bothered painting until he taught me). Overall I was lucky to have that support, and when that GW closed I wondered if I'd ever play again. I should also note that during this whole time I never had the internet, so was completely shut off from the wider community (no newbie question threads for me..)

Even now though, having discovered the wonders of Wyrd, Privateer Press, Corvus Belli, etc, I've never heard of most games (including the ones mentioned) and am quite reluctant to look into even more games. I still have never played in a general gaming club (or whatever the term is), so don't know much about that. I don't really play much at all (just Puppet Wars lately) simply because I don't know any dedicated gamers anymore (my friends use my PW collection).

The hobby doesn't work in a way that currently allows it to be mainstream. GW is the closest to being so, simply because they have a dedicated presence, plus computer games, etc. Problem with them is they're too expensive and scare away people, not only from GW but the hobby as a whole. Most people I know refer to miniatures either as toys (the real newbs), or as a hobby they once did but demands too much investment to get a reward they get from multiplayer gaming or sports. In terms of classification the hobby is most like sports, replacing visceral and spectator elements with creative and independent hobby. However it has the image of pre-movie adaptation comic books. Comic books never used be classed as cool, same way graffitti never used to classed as art, but they are now part of new classifications - geek chic and street art. Ironically the miniature hobby has something for almost everyone, but the seperated, disjointed communities, variety of games, investment cost and the lack of fundamental concepts to guide newbies, makes it very hard to make it a definable and unified industry. If comic books were the goth genre, then miniatures are like the steampunk genre - it's awesome and lots of people like it, but no one can agree on what it actual is.

If the industry were to establish some core values that unite them, then that could be sold on behalf of all (not talking about companies actually joining together). Then a clear image could be created and communities could pull themselves together and small games like Malifaux could really thrive because there's a small investment* (no need to paint at first), plus you wouldn't have to worry about no one playing in your area. The industry needs to sell the whole hobby, not just the individual games. Honestly, I don't see why miniature gaming can't just shoehorn itself into geek chic, but maybe the link to roleplay and gothicness (the goth part would certainly deter me) makes it seem too geeky/weird to be an accessory to maisntream fashion and entertainment (it deserves better anyway).

A wave of Hollywood films wouldn't hurt. I should probably get onto that...

*The point you made about the crew boxes is valid, but Wyrd have stated they are designed to be value for money > balance. The majority aren't too bad in terms of balancing both, but some crews are just naturally more expensive (Gremlins) and as such the crew box will not suffice. I started with Perdita, then Seamus, Marcus is the first master I didn't start with a crew box because I knew it wasn't great (paid roughly the same price for my crew though).

[super_bruno]

Maybe the hobby isn't mainstream because the guys making the games aren't mainstream. Maybe they are great gamers but not such great at marketing.

Let's take a boardgame: You buy one box, and you have everything in it. Rulebook, dices, board, cards, pawns...

How are marketed miniature wargames? Everything is separated. Sure it allows a lot of flexibility, which hardcore gamers will want, but it's daunting for mainstream players. You have to buy the rulebook, study the stats of each unit then buy those, assemble, paint, build terrain, etc, etc. You even have to buy the dices separately.

Imagine if you had to buy a car this way. You have to buy a motor, and seats, doors, a steering wheel, brakes, you have to paint the body, etc. etc. I'm sure you would see a lot less cars in the street if it worked that way.

Some games are going in the right direction. Terraclips for Malifaux and crewbox, Memoir 44, Claustrophobia, Space Hulk...

On a boardgame box, you see clearly the number of players, the suitable age to play, playing time... We don't see those on a miniature wargame box or rulebook. Information is not easily accessible. You have to do some research.

Why don't companies sell both painted and unpainted models? I know some people would be glad to pay a bit more to have a decent looking model. Some people just can't paint.

I also think the hobby would benefit from following the learning method for Battlelore. In the rulebook, you have about 10 scenarios to play. Number one is pretty basic, then each following scenario introduces new units, new rules... Why aren't rulebooks following on this idea?

[WyvernEye]

I agree with Battlore/memorei. ANytime someone is intersted in this stuff I steer them that way. Almost like a transition from "Risk" strategic board games and miniature tabletop board games. All fits in a box you can bring with you, and fits on a kitchen table. My son will bring his with us for THanksgiving and we will throw down... i think I am running 1 win to his 7... 8... hahaha

DOnt know if GW has done this to my knowledge, but some games like Battlelore to lead people in... These games could be sold at most toy stores as a lead in. Include there little advertizing pamplets of all the other stuff they sell...

A broader based knowledge in the community between the game companies is a good thought. Working together. It'd be nice...

J

[super_bruno]

GW also did a great thing with Lord of the Rings. I'm not sure how it is now, but you could buy a complete box. Which would hold miniatures for both players, dices, the rulebook and some terrain. In the rulebook you would find not only the rules, but also scenarios with a map of the terrain to use and a complete list of the forces for each sides and 50 pages on preparing and painting the models and on building terrain.

[Prunesquallor]

This is a great discussion!

I think it is important to make clear to newcomers that they should not think of these games as an extension of board game culture.

Your analogy with the car is great: some people love custom building cars from parts, giving them custom paint jobs etc. But most people would find this frustrating and pointless - even people who really love cars and love to drive.

Because let's face it (controversial statement): miniature games are bad games. Compared to Settlers, or Dominion, or Carcossonne, or Chess miniature games are inelegant, bloated, badly balanced, slow to learn and play, with overly-complex rules that are not always clear and almost never exhaustive. All the things that I love in a well-designed board game are absent in a miniature game.

And yet I love miniature games too. I love them for a whole different set of reasons. There's almost no overlap. I love becoming immersed in an alternate world. I love the sense of identification with my crew (my unique crew, that I've chosen and painted). I love the fact that the rules of the game bring out facets of the personality of each character. The rules have to be inelegant and complex because they are vehicles for character development (and there's nothing worse than straightforward, streamlined character development). And I love being part of an enthusiastic and dedicated community (with board games that's not important - you can just break them out at parties or with friends and still have a good time).

I think the most important thing in explaining miniature gaming to a newbie is explaining why people love these games. Because if you just want to play a game (as someone who has wandered into a store called Games Workshop might reasonably expect) there are much better games out there.

[Prunesquallor]

Also, I think it's a question worth raising: Do we gamers secretly like the fact that our games are inaccessible? Do we like being part of an exclusive club that outsiders don't understand?

[Manicmac]

Wow. I think I'll kick in here with some observations. I also note I owned a game store for some time, am an older, retired, military veteran and have three sons, all of whom play some or several miniature games.

I, as a Game Store owner, sold a hobby, not a game. That is very important to emphasize and make sure it is understood. Miniature or table top gaming not a game like Monopoly, Risk or Cataan. It is an entire hobby, in which you decide how much of your time and money you will invest in it. It is not for everybody, thus it may not be viewed as "mainstream" like knitting or sports card collecting.

When people came in my store I always talked to them and asked lot's of questions. I always had at least ONE game out and set up for a quick demo. Most of the new people wanted to know what it (Miniature table top gaming) was. Simple answer, it is like Chess but different. Of course I would explain then it was a hobby.

I would invite them to try a demo right then with me, or ask them back as a guest on game night.

I was also blessed with gamers that loved to help and allowed any newb to play a game with them to learn the ropes. Or even assist in painting assembling, which of course, usually went on all the time.

I no longer own my own store so now I have more time to participate in the hobby, (there is that word again), I am a Henchman, run classes on painting and terrain building, though I am by no means an artist as some here are, but I get the basics of have fun across.

So there you have it, TTG/miniatures are not for everyone, and I like the fact it is not.

[super_bruno]

Also, I think it's a question worth raising: Do we gamers secretly like the fact that our games are inaccessible? Do we like being part of an exclusive club that outsiders don't understand?

Hello to Nova Scotia! Down here in Montreal, there's that stupid white thing that fell from the sky yesterday. God do I hate winter! I sometime wonder what the heck was Jacques Cartier thinking... Didn't he like coconuts and bananas? When he came back after the first winter a found all his village decimated, didn't he think that going a bit to the south would be a great idea? I'll never understand.

So back on topic, I'm happy the discussion is going well at the moment and haven't been reduced to pointless bickering yet.

Like your comment about miniatures being bad games. I have to agree. I suppose the process of making a miniature game goes somewhat like this: "Hey guys! I cam up with this great unique simple rule that will allow to resolve everything for a miniature game. Let's try it!" Then while playing, one guy ask about cover, another about climbing, another about terrain, another question about heroes, double weapons, morale, cavalry... and you end up with a game based on one simple rule, with lots of exceptions and weird rules tacked on because they weren't taken into account at first.

I got that feeling while reading LOTR rulebook. You get all those simple rules and I said, wow, that sounds great, then they start pouring exceptions on your head. Ouch! You can almost hear them saying: "So thats the rules... Oh! forgot to mention you about defending a wall. But that's it. Oups, there is also this multiple fighting thing, but that's the last one. Oh, did I mention magic powers? Don't worry it's really simple..., etc, etc.

I think all the games are a bit like that. You have that awesome, simple system which sounds really really great. Except for the next five chapters of rules that don't really fit anywhere.

Is it possible to keep the personnality and difference between each unit or model while still using really simple rules? And still keep a lot of flexibility?

Edited November 24, 2011 by super_bruno

[ThePandaDirector]

I loved the LotR Skirmish Game, still one of my favourites. I never felt the rules were overly complicated, especially since they were segmented very well, so if you didn't want to do the thing about being trapped then removing it didn't completely break the game (though would make cavarly less fun). I for instance never bothered with morale because it was less fun (and I played Orcs - killing Aragon never got old). Plus I still have fond memories of getting 24 models for £12 and knowing that that was 3/4 of my army*. Should also point out (are PP listening), that I also loved LotR because the models were cheap, easy to paint, but the majoity were scultped in a way that made them very easy to convert. If there's one thing I don't like no matter how accessible it is, it's clone war scultping (though with Moria Goblins you couldn't give a fudge).

I think Puppet Wars finds a good balance. Every model is unique, but they are all linked by the same mechanics, of which there are few. The only challenge is things like effects and tokens, but the Pattern Book has several scenarios that introduce each rule at a time, which helps. It's becoming my favourite game purely because it has the freedom and variety of a miniature game, but all my non-hobby friends can play it. Plus I think it has a rather original way of balancing itself, which is complicated to explain*, but seems to work.

I think the point about hobby is very important, as companies aren't just selling a game, they're selling painting, modelling, fluff, etc and preferably in a way that overlaps them. Smog 1888 has amazing, characterful miniatures for a hobbyist but appears to have a very basic boadgame ruleset. I don't understand that as it appears to contradict itself, but would certainly appeal to an - albeit niche - market (painters who like simple games). For me the idea of simplicity usually means dumbing down, providing less avenues for telling a story, which is my goal when playing games (as opposed to total victory). I think games like Inquistitor were really good at satisfying the "hardcore" gamers with both models and rules being complicated but offering almost limitless freedom - that was a "build a car" game =]

I think it is very hard for a company to please everyone. I may want total freedom, have every model unique to each other (whether I'm fielding 6 or 60 models) and have rules that let me play a different game each time. Someone might want prepainted minis (doesn't give a damn if they're clones), really simple rules with no exceptions and a small range that is cheap and never expands. I feel like the simpler version attracts newbies (hate that word) more, but they are more are aimed at children (intro level) and so ain't really taking seriously by adults (both gamers and non-gamers). Again I hope games like Puppet Wars will be able to capitalise on the balance they seemed to have achieved and not only attract new gamers, but do so while retaining the values that attract hobbyists and the "hardcore".

*LotR. Even though one box and a blister would be enough to play a good sized game, the range never felt limiting, with plenty of choice to expand while not feeling forced to do so. Balancing wise it was great, I never felt punished for taking a Cave Troll over a Mordor one. Plus I never took heroes, but as much of a challenge it was to take down the likes of Aragon, Boromir and Gimli, it was still possible with enough strategy (TRAP!).

*Puppet Wars. Since the game is centred around fielding equal numbers of minis, as opposed to a points/soulstone limit, there's no immediate strength in numbers. Also each model has an animation cost linked to their strength (Death Marshal have AC 6 ram, Executioner 10 ram), which also unites them by suit (so the ones with a high AC are only really gonna effective with a master of the same suit). The brilliant part is that the player doesn't shuffle the deck of cards until it is finished, so you have to use every card at least once. This means that a Mature Nephilim (AC 10 mask) used with Lady Justice (who ignores rams in her puppets' AC) can only be animated by 10m, 11m, 12m, 13m and red jokers (while the Executioner would have roughly 4x the chance of being animated), that's 5/52 cards, so not great odds to bank on (but worth the risk?). So it might seem like you might as well just field within you're own suit, but then each suit is defined, so ram = combat, crow = defence, etc. So fielding one suit actually makes you quite unbalanced so you're pushed to find a balance, but aren't overly punished if you want to try new things (my friend had great success with a Mature Nephilim together with Lady Justice.. not to mention 2 Executioners). I know that's a very complicated explaination, but it works and the rules are all online so you don't even have to buy in to see what all the fun's about.

[super_bruno]

Another idea came to me. Since you got two types of miniatures gamers. The first is the guy who want to play a game, but not interested in the hobby aspect. The second is the hobby guys, who enjoys all aspect.

Terraclips is perfect for the first type, but doesn't keep the hobbyist from making hiw own, much more gorgeous terrain.

Maybe they could do the same things with the models. Sell those unpainted metal models for those who wants to have a great looking army and take the time to paint it. And for those with less abilities, sell cardboard stand-in, similar to those found in Return of the Heroes (http://boardgamegeek.com/image/188573/return-of-the-heroes) or dungeon twister. (http://boardgamegeek.com/image/107107/dungeon-twister).

It's even better because it would allow you to buy a cheap, big cardboard army, and start playing now. And slowly replace your cardboard models with nice painted models as budget, time and skills allows.

Another alternative would be to put the cardboard models in the same box as the metal models. So you have the option to choose which one suits you better.

I know there are some paper models you can download on the internet, but they are much more generic and you still have to print them, cut and glue. And from my experience with homemade cardboard terrain, it ends up being as expensive as real models, and the result is not worth the effort.

Edited November 24, 2011 by super_bruno

[Manicmac]

Another "problem" with Miniature gamers is the "class warfare" engaged in at game stores. Warhammer versus Warhammer 40K versus Hordes versus Malifaux versus Flames of War versus Wings of Glory etc. There is not one tidy neat all encompassing happy group that just plays and tolerates everything.

[super_bruno]

For some fun, just visit an Advanced Squad Leader forum and tell them that Memoir 44 is a wargame...

You know, it seems to me there is a disturbing cult mentality in miniature wargaming. There's only one game that holds the truth and everything else is crap. By truth I mean the correct way to "simulate" war.

Why are miniature wargamers so intolerant? Anybody has a clue?

Maybe it has something to do with spending a lot of money on a game? Maybe they are afraid of finding another, much more enjoyable game and realising that the investment was not worth it?

[Webmonkey]

I find this to be an interesting point of view. My experience has been much the opposite. Most gamers at most stores that I've been to all have several games that they play,.. and most are more then willing to try something new. As for the 'shunning of new players' aspect,... I also find this to be untrue. Most gamers are more then happy to talk for hours about the various games to new people. In fact, its getting them to shut up that's the problem.

[WyvernEye]

I will play and enjoy almost everything; but being a new Malifaux convert I noticed some offhanded remarks about "those warhammer players". Nothing really mean though...

There does tend to be some "gentle?" animosity between different games. Most of it I take as much like the strife between different crews in Malifaux or teams of a football game. The ones that keep an open mind find more games to play and enjoy :-)

(Hence a nice 2500pt Warhammer game this Wed then Mali on Thursday. Woohoo!!. Just dont tell my henchmen! :-}~

Jay