Marcus: pulling out of melee, how do you do it?

[poulpox]

Hi gang!

After a few first games I'm now starting to see the Marcus at work, but one thing which is difficult is when melee closes in: I charge a lone model and Alpha it, forcing it to charge away an ennemy model; now that Marcus is forward my opponent walks 2 or 3 models close-by, in hope to get initiative next turn and bash my head in. What would be your reaction to this?

Cheers!

T.

[Nephalumps]

Pray on high that you win the initiative flip next turn.

That's only half a joke, actually: Marcus' crew tends to rely on winning initiative at key points in the game, because he relies on surgical strikes to cripple/maim the enemy crew, and his crew absolutely cannot afford to eat the reprisal.

For Marcus himself, there are some things you can do to mitigate the pain of a failed initiative duel (beware Zoridia's Avatar/Dopplegangers!):

- Soulstones, and lots of 'em! Not just for re-flips (which don't help much if your opponent flips high on their initial flip,) but for boosting Marcus' defensive duel totals and preventing damage. I almost always run Marcus with a full cache, just because there is inevitably a round where he has to take it on the chin, and being able to burn 3-4 SS for defense usually allows him to come out in good shape.

- "Defend Me!" trigger. If your opponent is going to use charges and/or shooting to get to Marcus, having a model to fall back on for his defensive trigger can totally bail him out. I've noticed that lists where I don't have a good "Defend Me!" target (i.e. Molemen) tend to have a higher "Marcus mortality" rate than lists where I include a model for him to fall back on if he needs some security.

Because the trigger actually switches places with the beast, it can put Marcus outside of the threat range of things that were able to target him previously. And, because the trigger only goes off if he's successfully hit, you can try to dodge as much as possible, and then fall back on the trigger when you get a bad flip (Black Joker is Marcus' BFF ) or your opponent drops a high card/Soulstone combo.

Other than the above means, the best answer is "don't over extend." This is a huge problem for me with Marcus, because he and his crew tend to be so speedy. Its very easy to overextend Marcus or part of his crew to try and hit the enemy early/clear an early objective/go for a juicy Alpha, only to be isolated/picked apart shortly thereafter.

Ideally, if you're committing Marcus, I think the best way to do it is to ensure your crew is able to help him out by tying up/distracting the enemy crew. That way, your opponent will have less they can leverage against Marcus, and his odds of survival increase.

Granted, this is something I'm still working on, but I've definitely proven to myself time and time again that the alternative (rushing juicy targets as soon as the opportunity presents itself,) usually doesn't end well.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Nephalumps

[ukrocky]

In all my games with Marcus I've not once alpha'd, it's next to pointless IMO.

With Marcus he has the ability to charge something 10" away, hit it twice (once with a +ve twist so you can usually cheat in good damage), then walk away 8" (or 5"). So you have to charge models that are either isolated and hit it 3 times, or that you can do enough damage to to kill in one go (9 in reality, ss the charge attack so you get neutral or positive).

[Nephalumps]

I agree about Alpha - every time I'm in the situation to use it, it always feels like it'd put me in horrible circumstances to do so (and the few times I've tried, it has.) I'd love to erase the "enemy" part of that spell from the card.

@unrocky: Related to what you said, and the OP's question: what are the Feral Heart buffs you choose most often?

For me it varies by situation, but the early game is usually Fox and Hare, and then Serpent + Bear + Fox/Eagle when I have to send Marcus in to club things.

From your description it sounds like Serpent and Bear, and then maybe Hare if you're pretty sure you can kill the target and walk away (which makes a lot of sense.)

[poulpox]

Cheers for feedback!

My opponents play usually quite cagy so I found that my Marcus' loner charges might kill a model but almost always get counter-charged nastily. My last game was the first time I used Alpha, and it did quite well: after resisting the temptation to launch Marcus, an enemy model finally closed the gap towards me; I Alpha'd it after a serpent charge to charge an opponent model further back. I managed to do this I think 3 times each time crippling my opponent's plan by stealing one of his activation and killing his models with his own models (the Alpha victim was Taelor, which is prime beef to strike around). Overall I felt this gave a much nastier dimension to Marcus, and was well fun (for me at least).

I was thining about Snowstorm to use its Push ability on Marcus if the man is stuck in a dangerous spot. Anyone tried that?

[Cats Laughing]

Was rereading the v2 pdf for Arcanist, and I noticed that Defend Me doesn't require the ranged attack or charge to be performed by an enemy.

What happens if you charge Marcus with a friendly beast, then switch with that beast via the trigger, does the beast then bite itself?

I suppose you could use this to charge something with Marcus and have another friendly beast charge Marcus to pop Marcus out of combat and put the beast into combat (for a little extra range for the beast). Preferably something with additional attacks after a charge, like a Rogue Necromancy or Sabertooth.

Alternatively, you could try a conga line with Marcus and a shooty model (preferably one with a 1 damage weak). Shoot Marcus, switch with beast 3" away, shoot Marcus again, switch with beast a further 3" down the line.

Setting that up would probably be more difficult than it's worth though.

[Tograth]

TBH, as far as I am aware, you would trigger Defend Me, and the attack would then fail, as a model cannot target itself with an attack.

The reason for this, is that as soon as Marcus is hit by a charge or ranged strike, he can switch places with a friendly beast within 3".

It is only after the switch that the beast in question becomes the target of the attack, so it is after the switch that the attack fails.

[ukrocky]

Re what Wild Heart buffs I choose, it totally depends on the situation, I've found uses for all 6. If I need to kill something +ve attack, +2dg, one of the (0)'s, it really does change alot and based on the cards in hand (If I have a few high cards, +ve attack isn't as crucial).

[Fulgrima]

I have used the Snow Storm to pull Marcus out of combat in the past, the only problem is that it doesn't get you very far away unfortunately so you can be charged next turn. However it is better than being in combat if you loose the initiative.

The buff I have taken from Feral is +2df I always like to be prepared in case the main man gets himself hit.

[ukrocky]

Ah forgot to comment on the snowstorm. I've used it twice, once it didn't help marcus out directly but did alright, the other game it pulled him out of the middle of a gremlin gunline back into the soft cover it grants him and stopped him dying in all honesty...

[poulpox]

I suppose you could use this to charge something with Marcus and have another friendly beast charge Marcus to pop Marcus out of combat and put the beast into combat

Thanks Cats, I like that! Suppose Marcus is followed by 2 Night Terrors, he charges to do some stuff, then 1 NT moves in range of Defend Me, then the 2nd one charges Marcus, switching him to out of melee position. Plus their Dg is rather low so there's no risk of too much Dg, plus this means you might not have to use Fox and instead boost your attack if it is more useful.

I think this is actually the best option out of melee so far. The ranged attack option is good too: Marcus is in melee with Molemen close by. You then use a Silent One to shoot in the melee: if you hit the enemy good, if you hit Marcus he switches places with Mole (who resists well this spell), and you might even get a blast in, pretty neat! Say you have Myranda + Silent one you could then Furious cast and Casting Expert ranged spell, so 6 casts of ranged attack, one of which should put Marcus in a safe place...

@ Fulgrima: being at risk of being charged next turn isn't a problem if you play cagy as Marcus will then be able to use his Defend Me again if charged. What I want to diminish is risk of loss of initiative = Marcus trashed just because he is in melee.

Yay I feel happy, I think the solution has been found!

Edited November 10, 2011 by poulpox

[mkcontra]

So is this the case? Can you just charge Marcus w/ one of your own beasts, DEFEND ME using the charging beast, swap out and have the beast then be unable to attack, to no negative effect on Marcus' crew?

It seems a bit wonky, but I see nothing that really contradicts your reasoning.

Df(t) Defend Me: After this model is hit by a ranged

attack or is Charged, nominate a friendly Beast within 3”.

Switch places with the nominated Beast. The Beast is

now the target of the attack.

TBH, as far as I am aware, you would trigger Defend Me, and the attack would then fail, as a model cannot target itself with an attack.

The reason for this, is that as soon as Marcus is hit by a charge or ranged strike, he can switch places with a friendly beast within 3".

It is only after the switch that the beast in question becomes the target of the attack, so it is after the switch that the attack fails.

[poulpox]

So is this the case? Can you just charge Marcus w/ one of your own beasts, DEFEND ME using the charging beast, swap out and have the beast then be unable to attack, to no negative effect on Marcus' crew?

It seems a bit wonky, but I see nothing that really contradicts your reasoning.

I agree this seems a bit fishy, and I think the argument against it to say it would fizzle as a model cannot target itself (and would do so if being the subject of Defend Me) seems appropriate (although you never know, it might be worth asking in the rules section).

I was only reasoning on the use of 2 different friendly beasts: 1 to charge Marcus, the other to switch places with him; this is legal and could help Marcus to be pulled out of melee (he would likely take a Wd, but this is better than failing initiative whilst in melee!).