Chompy Missile Question

[Dj Noise]

So i've been reading about how Chompy can cross the bored, hit a model once or twice then leave, specially in the recent like 18page post on changing the dreamer that recently calmed down, but back to the topic.

How does this even work? i was reading how Companion works and it is perfectly defined in the book and there is no way that combat stratagy works... T1 you Activate a Daydream and companion the Dreamer, move them up and do the swap trick to get the Dreamer 13ish inches up the bored, he then goes and flies to get 20, Summons Chompy and he gets his 1-2 attacks depending on distance and thats as far as it goes. Even if Chompy's 0 Action a Daydream, that Daydream could not get him back across the bored. Chompy can't companion a Daydream because he does not have the Companion rule himself

The Dreamer can't Companion 2 Daydreams because he himself does not have Companion and theres no way to get a full activation on a 2nd or even the required 3rd Daydream to get Chompy or the Dreamer out of there... Did They change how Companion works? Was there an Errate? Going by the main rule book this is just out right cheating... Really wish Wyrd had an official FAQ/Errata section...

[Heraldo]

So i've been reading about how Chompy can cross the bored, hit a model once or twice then leave, specially in the recent like 18page post on changing the dreamer that recently calmed down, but back to the topic.

How does this even work? i was reading how Companion works and it is perfectly defined in the book and there is no way that combat stratagy works... T1 you Activate a Daydream and companion the Dreamer, move them up and do the swap trick to get the Dreamer 13ish inches up the bored, he then goes and flies to get 20, Summons Chompy and he gets his 1-2 attacks depending on distance and thats as far as it goes. Even if Chompy's 0 Action a Daydream, that Daydream could not get him back across the bored. Chompy can't companion a Daydream because he does not have the Companion rule himself

The Dreamer can't Companion 2 Daydreams because he himself does not have Companion and theres no way to get a full activation on a 2nd or even the required 3rd Daydream to get Chompy or the Dreamer out of there... Did They change how Companion works? Was there an Errate? Going by the main rule book this is just out right cheating... Really wish Wyrd had an official FAQ/Errata section...

Yeh its pretty simple, but it's contrary to the way the rules are written.

The easy way to think of it is: if a model has companion, then the other models in your crew count as having companion with it written on their card.

Its not the way its written in the rulebook, but it is how its been ruled. It should be an errata, but apparently we're just meant to know it works like that

So basically, Dreamer has "Companion Daydream" when you have Daydreams. Same goes for other companions in the game.

[Dj Noise]

So why can they not just release an actual FAQ/Errata? This forum rule system is all just confusing. Rules are titled under inaccurate or just non helpful titles making searching difficult, they then just get pushed down the pages by newer posts making them harder to find, and most of the answer are by just other players which even if they are right, trying to win an argument on rules because "That guy" said it works is as easy as trying to clap your hands while doing a hand stand with your hands are tied behind your back after having your hands amputated... ( i'd keep going but im tired of saying hands... )

Was like the issue i had with buried few weeks ago, i got 9 or 10 people saying yes that works that way but no one at my LGS accepted it until a Rules Marshal said Yes that is exactly how it works.

So yes you may be right and justified via Rules Marshals or something, but with no authorized power especially when the main rule book itself says your wrong and no other reference point to look at... how is this helpful?

[Firebox]

So why can they not just release an actual FAQ/Errata? This forum rule system is all just confusing. Rules are titled under inaccurate or just non helpful titles making searching difficult, they then just get pushed down the pages by newer posts making them harder to find, and most of the answer are by just other players which even if they are right, trying to win an argument on rules because "That guy" said it works is as easy as trying to clap your hands while doing a hand stand with your hands are tied behind your back after having your hands amputated... ( i'd keep going but im tired of saying hands... )

Was like the issue i had with buried few weeks ago, i got 9 or 10 people saying yes that works that way but no one at my LGS accepted it until a Rules Marshal said Yes that is exactly how it works.

So yes you may be right and justified via Rules Marshals or something, but with no authorized power especially when the main rule book itself says your wrong and no other reference point to look at... how is this helpful?

Thread is here for reference:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24299

But yeh, the current rules/errata/faq system is something a lot of people have asked to be improved.

[Tiny]

Page 115:

Before activating a model with companion, nominate any number of the referenced model(s) or model(s) with the corresponding Characteristic within 6" of one another. These models activate simultaneously. Choose one of the nominated models to activate first, and complete its entire activation. Then the controller chooses and activates another nominated model. Continue activating the nominated models until all nominated models have completed their activations.

Are you saying you couldnt find the reference or that you don't think it covers it?

You activate a daydream, then you activate another model with the nominated characteristic in this case the day dream has "Companion(The Dreamer/Lord Chompy Bits)", you also nominate the dreamer (the referenced model) and then activate a 2nd daydream (model with a corresponding characteristic).

So you've declared that a day dream, the dreamer and a 2nd day dream will activate.

First daydream walks, then casts frightening dream and summons LCB, then uses calm nightmare to change him back to the dreamer.

Daydreams activation ends.

The Dreamer activates. Depending on how far away the enemy is he either uses I can fly! then walks once and casts Frightening Dream to summon LCB with maybe an Inflict Dreams thrown in. Or just casts Frightening Dream.

LCB Immediately activates due to One Master. He does his charges/attacks whatever. His last attack he uses a tome to get the All Done. Trigger to bury and be replaced with the dreamer.

LCB activation ends.

2nd Daydream activates. He's miles away at the original spot. He casts Frightening Dream via magical extension. To bring LCB within 6" of himself. Then uses Calm Nightmare to have the dreamer back standing next to him. And does whatever he wants with the last action point.

Does it make more sense?

[karn987]

Btw: The thread with the Companion ruling is here:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=300020&postcount=16

The Wiki on the Dreamer covers it here, go down to the Full Speed Ahead! section:

http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/The+Dreamer

So why can they not just release an actual FAQ/Errata? This forum rule system is all just confusing. Rules are titled under inaccurate or just non helpful titles making searching difficult, they then just get pushed down the pages by newer posts making them harder to find, and most of the answer are by just other players which even if they are right, trying to win an argument on rules because "That guy" said it works is as easy as trying to clap your hands while doing a hand stand with your hands are tied behind your back after having your hands amputated... ( i'd keep going but im tired of saying hands... )

Was like the issue i had with buried few weeks ago, i got 9 or 10 people saying yes that works that way but no one at my LGS accepted it until a Rules Marshal said Yes that is exactly how it works.

So yes you may be right and justified via Rules Marshals or something, but with no authorized power especially when the main rule book itself says your wrong and no other reference point to look at... how is this helpful?

Well I can't speak for Wyrd, I can say several of us users have been working hard to try and keep track of things like this.

The Pull My Finger Tactica Wiki serves as both a place for information and strategies about individual models and crews. BUT it is also attempting to create and track a concrete list of all minor rules updates, clarrifications and outright Errata made to the game.

While our list is by far not complete, please check it out and maybe it will help you out. If you want to be part of the solution, sign up and give us a hand with this. One of the next initiatives we will be starting will be to dive deep into the bowels of the forums and drag out all the rulings, clarrifications, errata's, and minor tweaks made over the last year or so.

As for any other issues with no Marshal rulings when they are needed, well all I can say is be patient. Wyrd has proven time and again they are not just turning a blind eye or a deaf ear. They are paying attention and often the lack of a response by a RM on a heated question is a sign they are discussing it. I know, immediatly the feeling pops up "Why don't they just say that". To that I have no answer. There is always room for improvement is a simple one, but they are also very busy and the company is still very small. The strain on their staff from day to day activities is high even before you consider the rules section. Not making excuses for them, just trying to spread a bit of understanding rather then let bitterness creap in to much.

Simply, untill Wyrd releases their own Errata/FAQ thing and comes up with a better way to track major rulings... the Wiki is going to be the point of consolidation (unoffically of course). We're going to ramp up for this very soon and I do invite you to help solve this problem.

Edited November 3, 2011 by karn987

[Dj Noise]

Thats not how i was told it worked, was told by corresponding characteristic was like the companion family one where its not listing a model, its listing a stat. If it said Companion Nightmare, but all it says is Companion The Dreamer/Chompy nothing saying something like /models with this companion or /daydreams specifically. So sorry Tiny, i do not thing that covers other daydreams.

[karn987]

Thats not how i was told it worked, was told by corresponding characteristic was like the companion family one where its not listing a model, its listing a stat. If it said Companion Nightmare, but all it says is Companion The Dreamer/Chompy nothing saying something like /models with this companion or /daydreams specifically. So sorry Tiny, i do not thing that covers other daydreams.

Think of it like this. It became a 2 way street with Sketch's ruling on it. It now means that if Model A can companion Model B then Model B can also companion Model A.

In this case, Model A is the Daydreams and Model B is the Dreamer/LCB. Daydreams can NOT companion themselves. Instead what happens is, the Dreamer/LCB when Activated, will Companion the other Daydreams and then shuffle the order up a bit (Since when you start a companion chain, you do sorta select a model to activate then can switch it to another model viable for the chain).

I'm confused on what your issue is. What are you having a hard time with? Understading the Rule Change? Or is this about justifying it?

[Tiny]

Corresponding characteristic IS companion family. So in this case the Companion(The Dreamer/Lord Chompy Bits) Corresponds from daydream to daydream. Just like Companion(Family) does from Santiago to Francisco.

[Dj Noise]

I do understand it is allot of work, and it takes time, its just hard to get correct answer and i have authenticate and actually use. In my last four games I've been told that a strategy i tried that i heard about was illegal and i had no way of backing it up except with " Thats what they say on the forums" and the response i always get is that's not official or they are wrong or that is there opinion.

I understand there point of view though even if its frustrating, i mean if a random person just walks up to me and says like that's a 100 dollar fine for littering ( not that i litter, just an example ) i'd probably tell them to bugger off, but if a police officer walked up to me and said the same thing well... guess im out 100 dollars.

I have read allot of the wiki also and tried that and its pretty much the same response except for the few things Wyrd themselves have said, such as the Alp rule, they accept that because the Wyrd site says it.

Its pretty much if i cant get an actual Wyrd authorized person to give me a hand written note then its not accepted at my LGS and its just making it more frustrating every game i play. although even without being able to do the multi companion trick my last game was allot of fun, it ended with Chompy vs 4 Gobos which 2 of failed terror and with some massive biting and clawing regening Chompy wiped them out.

I know im ranting and im sorry for that, posted this mostly i wanted a definite answer which it appears you have provided which i thank you much for, and a small part just needed to vent and see if anyone els is having all the same issues im having or if my LGS is just BSB.

[Dj Noise]

Think of it like this. It became a 2 way street with Sketch's ruling on it. It now means that if Model A can companion Model B then Model B can also companion Model A.

In this case, Model A is the Daydreams and Model B is the Dreamer/LCB. Daydreams can NOT companion themselves. Instead what happens is, the Dreamer/LCB when Activated, will Companion the other Daydreams and then shuffle the order up a bit (Since when you start a companion chain, you do sorta select a model to activate then can switch it to another model viable for the chain).

I'm confused on what your issue is. What are you having a hard time with? Understading the Rule Change? Or is this about justifying it?

I guess its more of sense there is not a officall link or page for this stuff like GW or other games have and its just forums, they don't keep up with the forums posts and search for Wyrd rulings on thing, its pretty much if it is NOT in the main rule book it is not legit, sense the MRB does not say in short " Companions a two way street" and sense they define it differently then Tiny just did, it does not work. Same with Bury, reading the MRB only i get no suggestion buried models are not effected by phases for spells and such, just "events and Effects" Specifically as its stated, so until i got a RM and showed them i was told that is wrong.

[karn987]

I do understand it is allot of work, and it takes time, its just hard to get correct answer and i have authenticate and actually use. In my last four games I've been told that a strategy i tried that i heard about was illegal and i had no way of backing it up except with " Thats what they say on the forums" and the response i always get is that's not official or they are wrong or that is there opinion.

I understand there point of view though even if its frustrating, i mean if a random person just walks up to me and says like that's a 100 dollar fine for littering ( not that i litter, just an example ) i'd probably tell them to bugger off, but if a police officer walked up to me and said the same thing well... guess im out 100 dollars.

I have read allot of the wiki also and tried that and its pretty much the same response except for the few things Wyrd themselves have said, such as the Alp rule, they accept that because the Wyrd site says it.

Its pretty much if i cant get an actual Wyrd authorized person to give me a hand written note then its not accepted at my LGS and its just making it more frustrating every game i play. although even without being able to do the multi companion trick my last game was allot of fun, it ended with Chompy vs 4 Gobos which 2 of failed terror and with some massive biting and clawing regening Chompy wiped them out.

I know im ranting and im sorry for that, posted this mostly i wanted a definite answer which it appears you have provided which i thank you much for, and a small part just needed to vent and see if anyone els is having all the same issues im having or if my LGS is just BSB.

In truth, your LGS sounds like they are being a pain in the arse for no good reason. If they want to take the hard line view of "no forum rulings allowed" fine, that is there choice. But they have to wake up eventually to this day and age and understand that forum rulings are very common place in 90% of the mini's games today.

What has to happen is they also have to think for themselves. If they are just turning osmething away because there is no RM post on it, then stop them. They should sit down and read the arguments made by people and form their own opinion. If you both are at odds still, then flip a coin to decide how to play it for now. That is the best way to do it if something is really on the fence like that. There are very few things that go long on the forums without some veteran member jumping in on to correct if it's wrong. People won't let wrong answers stand simply. If somehting is argueed to an impass then they begin to poke and prod the RM's for a ruling. Most of the time, an RM will weigh in before it gets that bad.

But I do see where your frustration is coming from and I do also see that your LGS is just being very inflexible from the sound of it. If they will only accept a Marshal ruling, then fine. As long as they establish that guide line, you know how you need to go from there. But they can't have it both ways. They either need to stick ot Marshal only and accept ALL of them (once they are settled if they become disputed [ RM's can and have been wrong just like any forum rules people]) or accept nothing from the forums/internet. Ranting is fine man, we all need to vent at times;)

The Wiki will link you to a ruling 90% of the time to. Or at least it should, it's in the guidlines for creating/editing. If something is missing a reference and needs one, make a post on that page about it! Heck go to my thread on the wiki in the Malifaux Matters section (stickied at the top) and post it there. But let us know! Don't just sit on the information and do nothing with it. If there is a problem, get what you need and do what you can about it or at least let others know so they can do something about it. That's what the Wiki is about in the case of the Errata/Clarrifications. There is a problem, we are doing what we can to fix it from our end while we wait to see what Wyrd is doing.

[Tiny]

I guess its more of sense there is not a officall link or page for this stuff like GW or other games have and its just forums, they don't keep up with the forums posts and search for Wyrd rulings on thing, its pretty much if it is NOT in the main rule book it is not legit, sense the MRB does not say in short " Companions a two way street" and sense they define it differently then Tiny just did, it does not work. Same with Bury, reading the MRB only i get no suggestion buried models are not effected by phases for spells and such, just "events and Effects" Specifically as its stated, so until i got a RM and showed them i was told that is wrong.

Does that mean you are still using the first rulebook the big one with the red stripe? If so then i think we just found the problem.

And bury is also covered in the rules manual...

[karn987]

I guess its more of sense there is not a officall link or page for this stuff like GW or other games have and its just forums, they don't keep up with the forums posts and search for Wyrd rulings on thing, its pretty much if it is NOT in the main rule book it is not legit, sense the MRB does not say in short " Companions a two way street" and sense they define it differently then Tiny just did, it does not work. Same with Bury, reading the MRB only i get no suggestion buried models are not effected by phases for spells and such, just "events and Effects" Specifically as its stated, so until i got a RM and showed them i was told that is wrong.

What's this MRB your talking about? Mini Rule Book? The Rules Manual? You should only be using the Rules Manual now for actual game rules, the first book is long out of date.

Malifaux is one of the most complex mini's games out there right now and it takes a degree of critical thinking to follow. It is not a game where every little detail is explicitally stated for you, you have to think a little. If your LGS is having trouble with this, then dirrect them here. But what makes them any more or less right then you are? If they can't prove they are correct, then they simply aren't. If your arguing something from here you probably have at least a page of information put up by forumites to help you out. Sounds like your LGS is just a bit snobbish to be honest, but thats just give nthe vague info you've mentioned.

Most games don't actually have up to date Errata/Clarrifications sections. Very few living Errata's exist even though they are pretty much the ideal format. I'd be willing to bet you the vast majority of mini's games have a system similiar to Wyrds. Maybe more organized etc, but still just a big forum of rules questions and rulings that were never/rarely linked to one place. Even GW and PP do the same thing and they are some of the biggest players in world right now. It's just how things are done sadly.

Edited November 3, 2011 by karn987

[Dj Noise]

No, we have the little hand books. At first i just accepted they rulings on it being new to the game, i figured they should know more right? Then after reading 3 Dreamer strategies and trying to do them and being told that illegal i started investigating thinking well if it is an actual allowed strategy it has to work some how or it would of been corrected by responses basic logic i thought, and now im here, having this convo at how my LGS is crazy, but I've never had this issue in the 6 other table top games I've played. I sure it will all be flushed out in time, just have to wait for that game to come.

[karn987]

No, we have the little hand books. At first i just accepted they rulings on it being new to the game, i figured they should know more right? Then after reading 3 Dreamer strategies and trying to do them and being told that illegal i started investigating thinking well if it is an actual allowed strategy it has to work some how or it would of been corrected by responses basic logic i thought, and now im here, having this convo at how my LGS is crazy, but I've never had this issue in the 6 other table top games I've played. I sure it will all be flushed out in time, just have to wait for that game to come.

Well lets take it case by case then and see if we can arm you with the tools and knowledge you need to argue down your opposition and see if you have it right.

What were the 3 things? As much detail as possible please.

[Dj Noise]

Well lets take it case by case then and see if we can arm you with the tools and knowledge you need to argue down your opposition and see if you have it right.

What were the 3 things? As much detail as possible please.

The First one was with burring models with spells/abilities active. Example was you have our Nightmares cast there buffs such as Insidious Madness's Aura or Alps Aura and Dreamers Nightmare Terror 13, Bury everything, end your turn and then turn 2 or 3 bring everyone into play fully buffed and still having full activation. I was then told models buried are still effected by flow of time and phases so even buried, the buffs would fade. I won 2 weeks later with a response from a RM.

The Second was... i have to look up the details again and ill get back to that.

The Third was the whole multi companion thing so when i went to take my turn i activated the dreamer, went to companion the daydreams and told he doesn't have companion so i cant do that Chompy jump attempt ended Activation 1 Turn 1 for me because i just gave up after 20 minutes and went on to watch Chompy take on 4 Gobos to win the game after 2Alps, 2 Daydreams, Lelu, Lithue, and 2 Stiches died. The Dreamer was still alive but i figured at this point with 6SS left just see what happens and as the pre mention 2 failed Terrors went 8 wounds healed via eatting, Chompy fought like a Champ.

Still looking for the 2nd Strat i read but can go with this while i find it

And Strat 3 i tried just like 10 hours ago.

[Dj Noise]

Sidenote, just checked the original guide the dreamer i read and its by a Karn987 heh, downloaded in from a Tabletopgreeks website. Although it does seam a bit out of date because it stats you can keep Stitched Together alive forever by burying them after Does not Die Trigger.

[karn987]

Sidenote, just checked the original guide the dreamer i read and its by a Karn987 heh, downloaded in from a Tabletopgreeks website. Although it does seam a bit out of date because it stats you can keep Stitched Together alive forever by burying them after Does not Die Trigger.

Yup that I know and its out of date now. That was changed with their Card and was originally written off hte book printing. I keep meaning to get around to updating it, but lack of time really kills it :/

I consider asking it just to be taken down, but 90% of all the guides are still useful. Maybe I should just post a corrections list...

[Cunning]

Corresponding characteristic IS companion family. So in this case the Companion(The Dreamer/Lord Chompy Bits) Corresponds from daydream to daydream. Just like Companion(Family) does from Santiago to Francisco.

That's not correct. A daydream cannot companion another daydream. Family is a characteristic on the card so anything with Companion(Family)can companion anything else with that characteristic.

Dreamer/Lord Chompy Bits are names of models so you can only companion them.

[Dj Noise]

OK found the 2nd one, this one i was technically right on, but the first time i attempted it was the day Nekima got cuddled and i failed to check the website that day so when i tried i was told i can no longer give Lilitu Auto Lure anymore because she was errata that morning. I thought it was oddly coincidental that once again i was being told i was wrong, then they backed it up and thought it was more coincidental that it just happened to happen the same day as i was going to try it. Nekima Gives Lilitu a free mask and as long as she gets 4 to cast it goes off and auto triggers double take. So i missed out on that fun. Still have a feeling it wasn't just bad timing on my part though, my LGS is pretty sneaky...

So that was more of Lil and Nek combo then Dreamer though.

[mindwarpusa]

Dj

first while karn's tatica is slightly out of date as far as one or two erratas its still one of the best guides on the internet to winning with the dreamer. It helped me alot while learning him and since I haven't lost a game.

to your first issue

per the rule manual pg 13

"Buried: Some models may begin an Encounter buried, or become buried by a Talent or Spell during the Encounter. While buried, a model is out of play, but still in the game and effects on the model, including Wd it has suffered or ongoing Spells, remain on it. A buried model unburies and returns to play when an effect allows it to do so." So no need for a RM.

And the third

The daydreams have companion Dreamer/LCB on their cards so you may companion them to the dreamer. you're not companioning the other daydreams its just that by companioning the dreamer you activate all nominated models simultaneously, and activate one after the other.

[Dj Noise]

Dj

first while karn's tatica is slightly out of date as far as one or two erratas its still one of the best guides on the internet to winning with the dreamer. It helped me alot while learning him and since I haven't lost a game.

to your first issue

per the rule manual pg 13

"Buried: Some models may begin an Encounter buried, or become buried by a Talent or Spell during the Encounter. While buried, a model is out of play, but still in the game and effects on the model, including Wd it has suffered or ongoing Spells, remain on it. A buried model unburies and returns to play when an effect allows it to do so." So no need for a RM.

And the third

The daydreams have companion Dreamer/LCB on their cards so you may companion them to the dreamer. you're not companioning the other daydreams its just that by companioning the dreamer you activate all nominated models simultaneously, and activate one after the other.

All that stats on P13 is they are buried with there buffs, it does not stat they are not effected by the resolves effect step. and just going by that alone with no additional ruling all that means is if somethings burred with say a terror buff then later brought back that turn it still has terror, but at the end phase, the buff goes away regardless if hes on the bored or not because the bury rule only stats unaffected by "Effects and Events" Phases are neither Effects or Events. Not sure if you read the whole post or not but think you missed the part where my LGS is hard set on not accepting forum rulings.

and to the companion thing, sense my LGS is unacceptable of forum rulings sense the Dreamer and Chompy themselves do not have Companion you have to start with a Daydream which companions one of the two but has no way to companion another daydream in anyway.

[Firebox]

All that stats on P13 is they are buried with there buffs, it does not stat they are not effected by the resolves effect step. and just going by that alone with no additional ruling all that means is if somethings burred with say a terror buff then later brought back that turn it still has terror, but at the end phase, the buff goes away regardless if hes on the bored or not because the bury rule only stats unaffected by "Effects and Events" Phases are neither Effects or Events. Not sure if you read the whole post or not but think you missed the part where my LGS is hard set on not accepting forum rulings.

Couple of things here:

The resolve effects step explicitly removes effects from models in play.

Buried models are explicitly not in play.

By the rulebook, this works, no forum rules involved.

Although if your LGS does not accept forum rulings and such, I'd suggest that the real issue here is your LGS, not anything else. All of these rulings can be found in the rules forum answered by marshals or Sketch, so do some searching and print them out maybe, or take a good mobile device gaming with you? Or just break out the fists and explain to people why they're wrong.

and to the companion thing, sense my LGS is unacceptable of forum rulings sense the Dreamer and Chompy themselves do not have Companion you have to start with a Daydream which companions one of the two but has no way to companion another daydream in anyway.

Not sure why. You were linked a ruling by the lead rules guy further up this thread that specifically states that this is how companion works. Not sure what more you want or what more we can give you?

[Dj Noise]

Couple of things here:

The resolve effects step explicitly removes effects from models in play.

Buried models are explicitly not in play.

By the rulebook, this works, no forum rules involved.

Although if your LGS does not accept forum rulings and such, I'd suggest that the real issue here is your LGS, not anything else. All of these rulings can be found in the rules forum answered by marshals or Sketch, so do some searching and print them out maybe, or take a good mobile device gaming with you? Or just break out the fists and explain to people why they're wrong.

Not sure why. You were linked a ruling by the lead rules guy further up this thread that specifically states that this is how companion works. Not sure what more you want or what more we can give you?

From the link with the official ruling yes it does work, but as stated multiple times about my LGS, sense the book itself does not state that, they do not count it. forum ruling or not, its not in the book.