Project Emotions and Defense flips

[Cunning]

This came up the other day at a tournament. What constitutes a defense flip?

With project emotions you can make models take a negative flip on all WP, attack or defense flips.

WP is obviously self explanatory and attacks are clearly defined in the RM but I don't think defense is. I assumed to was anything that 'defended' against an attack buy one of my opponents thought it was only for combat flips.

Which is it? Or is it something else entirely? Cheers.

[JuJubee]

If you resist with DF it's a defense flip

[Cunning]

Why does it not say DF on the card then rather that Defense?

[magicpockets]

Wow, I've always thought it meant a duel you are defending in (i.e. the opposite to the "attack" option in the spell)

[Cunning]

Wow, I've always thought it meant a duel you are defending in (i.e. the opposite to the "attack" option in the spell)

Exactly. That was my understanding too. Otherwise it should have said Df much like it does for Wp.

[Calmdown]

Wow, I've always thought it meant a duel you are defending in (i.e. the opposite to the "attack" option in the spell)

I kind of agree with this. "attack" is clearly defined in the rulebook and "defense" is not defined in the same way. But, defense is not the same as Df at all.

If you had the option to give -ve flips to all "defense" duels, it would mean you could stack people onto --ve against wp duels when they are the defender which doesn't seem like that's the intention with her.

Or maybe it is? In any case, surprised this has never come up before tbh.

[Headcase2]

The name is somewhat unfortunate. A defense flip is the flip made when a model is attacked with a Strike. See page 42 of the rules manual. A defense flip is indeed different from a Df duel (although a defense flip is also a Df duel if defense is used), and is not the same as a resist duel either (which is for spells).

[Calmdown]

The name is somewhat unfortunate. A defense flip is the flip made when a model is attacked with a Strike. See page 42 of the rules manual. A defense flip is indeed different from a Df duel (although a defense flip is also a Df duel if defense is used), and is not the same as a resist duel either (which is for spells).

Nice find. That's the answer.

You're on fire today.

[Cunning]

Okay so that also means that Attack Flip is the flip in a strike rather the the flip for any attack?

[Calmdown]

Okay so that also means that Attack Flip is the flip in a strike rather the the flip for any attack?

Edit: Yep. Attack is defined on Pg 18. Attack Flip is defined at the same time as Defense Flip on Pg 42. So only -ve to strikes.

Edit 2: In actuality I think we're still wrong here gents. Pandora specifically states attack and defense duels, not attack and defense flips. Which means (as far as I can see from a quick flip through the pdf) that project emotions is going to give -ve to any duel in which you are the attacker or defender respectively.

However, in regard to spells, you could give someone a -ve to their cast (since they are the attacker as defined by Pg 18 and hence making an attack duel) but not -ve to their resist (since that is specifically a resist duel and not a defense duel).

Confused yet?

Edited November 1, 2011 by Calmdown

[Cunning]

Isn't a resist duel a type of defense duel?

[Calmdown]

Isn't a resist duel a type of defense duel?

No, at no point does it call the resisting party a defender.

Whereas with strike duels and opposed duels it specifically defines attacker and defender, which implies attack duel and defense duel.

[Cunning]

But a spell that requires a resist is an attack therefore the person being attacked is the defender.

[JuJubee]

Sorry I was at work and didn't have my books with me.

[Calmdown]

But a spell that requires a resist is an attack therefore the person being attacked is the defender.

There is no "therefore", that's just interpretation.

In strike situations, there is always an attacker and a defender (as defined in the book under opposed duels and strike duels).

A cast is an attack, according to the rulebook definition of an attack.

A resist duel is not defined as a defense duel, and not covered by the above as it's a separate mechanic.

I guess the point is, nothing has either an attacker and/or defender implicitly; according to the book, some things have one or both explicitly.

[Cunning]

Thanks Ratty so this is basically what I thought originally.

[Mike3838]

EDIT: This was in response to Ratty's original ruling which has now been deleted, and so this post now makes no sense. Please disregard.

Well this changes Pandora a fair bit then. Previously Project Emotions: Pity was the default option.

After this ruling, surely Project Emotions: Depression is a much better choice, as it encompasses 99% of what Pity did, with added efficacy against strikes. Is this correct?

In fact, the only circumstances now where Pity would be better would be if you were prepping for a Terrifying model to do it's stuff (target would be WP duelling as an attacker) or if the target used it's WP for an attack (eg. Insid Madness), ie very very situational.

Mike

Edited November 2, 2011 by Mike3838
No longer makes sense

[Calmdown]

A model is the Defender in any duel where there is an Attacker. A model is making a Defense duel/flip if it is the Defender. A Resist Flip is a subset of Defense Flip when the attacker is using a Spell to make the attack, it is seperated as it is a simple duel with an Attacker and Defender.

Cool. Is this explicit in the rulebook anywhere or is the intended to be implicit?

And therefore, if Pandora Projects Emotions, she drop -wp flips and -defense flips onto the same targets (different effect names) for a total of --ve to all defensive Wp duels, correct?

[Calmdown]

Nope Calmdown, you can't be affected by Project Emotions twice in a turn.

Cunningstunt is a NAUGHTY BOY.

Some followup questions:

1) "Affected by" = "failed a resist duel against", right?

2) Does a model hit by a PE blast still need to test to resist the spell if it's already been affected, but just takes no effects regardless of win or lose?

3) If a model has already lost a duel and been affected by PE, it is still a legal target to cast the blast at, even though it doesn't need to make a resist duel?

4) Can you choose a different effect for each model under the PE blast?

5) Regardless of the answer to 4, are the effects chosen when the blast is placed and before flips are made, or are they chosen once the resist is failed?

[NBmaster]

Wow some of you guys must not have realized that there arnt any jobs in the field of semantics before getting your Phd's.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Pity still helps against getting Pandora targeted since it is a wp duel and if the modeling targeting is attacker. Makes her almost impossible to target by the model.

[NBmaster]

Pity is still the only one to use as Pandora and Sarrows do dmg when WP duels are lost in their presence. PE + Dementia, within 4 inchs of Pandora sarrows and doppelganger with Pandoras zoe = almost instant death to anything still left to activate

[Calmdown]

Pity is still the only one to use as Pandora and Sarrows do dmg when WP duels are lost in their presence. PE + Dementia, within 4 inchs of Pandora sarrows and doppelganger with Pandoras zoe = almost instant death to anything still left to activate

Thanks for your helpful insights, my Pandora playing will be much better now.

Can we get back to the rules questions and leave the discussions for the other forums?

Cheers

[Mike3838]

To be honest NBmaster I'd rather take Depression now. Negative on all defence duels includes every one of Pandora's spell attacks, and most of her crew's and has the added effect of helping out your melee hitters. You'll still win most of your Expose Fears duels without imposing a -ve flip, due to P's high WP and SS's. I've never thought of Pity as a defensive ability before, and don't see the need to start using it for defence now.

I do agree that it has a use combined with Dementia though.

Mike

[NBmaster]

Which was plainly obvious until all the confusing semantics came into play hence my first post. If leading questions wernt asked the opportunity for error would arise alot less on this board.

[Ratty]

OK

2. Strike Duel

Perform the Strike (Cb → Df) Duel. Some Strikes may use other stats for the attacker and/or defender and are indicated in their descriptions.

A. Flip for Starting Attack and Defense Totals. The attacker and defender each flip one Fate Card (Attack Flip and Defense Flip respectively) .........

during a Strike,

the attacker makes a Attack Flip

the defender makes a Defense Flip

during a Spell,

the attacker makes a Casting Flip

the defender makes a Resist Flip

When you are using your Willpower Wp stat in a flip it's a Wp Flip

When you are using your Defense Df stat in a flip it's a Df Flip

Edited November 1, 2011 by Ratty