Regeneration and Poison

[Cornelious1424]

So I had a game tonight where a model with Regeneration received Poison. Which effect would happen first?

Ex. LCB attacks Sybelle with his toothy maw of doom, damages and gives her Poison 2. At this point she has 2 wounds left, so when she activates she will either heal with Regen or die from Poison before she can heal with Regen. Both me and my friend didn't know the timing on this so we "flipped off" in the interest of fairness. Fortunately I won the flip which saved Sybells beautiful face (for that turn).

[Q'iq'el]

Another doubt one may have is whether Poison is an active player's effect or not. The tokens have been applied by another model, but then the effect is on the acting model and it is the model which has to apply it.

I can't recall the rulling about scoring kills with Poison, but it probably shows the right way (i.e. if the model applying Poison gets VP for killing with Poison, then it likely isn't the acting player's effect, but if he doesn't, then it is one.

[Buhallin]

Regen fits the criteria for being an Immediate effect - it occurs and is applied immediately and nothing stops it from stacking with other effects.

I'm not sure about this.

Regeneration is an ability, which by definition is always in effect. Just because it only does something at the beginning of the turn doesn't make it an "appear and go away" effect.

But more importantly, I'd strongly argue against Regeneration stacking. While we don't have any specific rulings that I know of, the rules are very clear that any stacking abilities are listed as +X, a'la Armor.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not sure about this.

Regeneration is an ability, which by definition is always in effect. Just because it only does something at the beginning of the turn doesn't make it an "appear and go away" effect.

But more importantly, I'd strongly argue against Regeneration stacking. While we don't have any specific rulings that I know of, the rules are very clear that any stacking abilities are listed as +X, a'la Armor.

I definitely agree it doesn't stack. You choose the highest number and this applies (same as with Poison).

However, I think the effect is immediate.

The ability is there on the card always, but it isn't an effect (unless it's applied by an aura). It triggers at the start of activation (just like many abilities trigger at certain time or when their condition is fulfilled). The effect of Regeneration is to heal X Wd.

This definitely is an immediate effect.

So, even if Regeneration itself is applied by a spell or aura and is a lasting effect, the effect of Regenarion triggering and healing the target is always immediate.

Depending on the case it may be an ability causing an effect or a case of one effect causing another, but when it comes to resolution of the timing, it's the effect that is being applied at the given moment which counts (which is to heal X Wd).

As I've originally said, I'm not sure about Poison. The Poison as an effect is applied by another model when it hits the target with Poison. At that moment effects of the Poison are applied - the X tokens. The rule for Poison tells us we have to discard these tokens at the start of activation phase, but we also know that when you Shrug Off or Dispel, you remove one token at a time, not the entire Poison effect (I may remember the ruling wrong though, writing from memory right now).

So let's assume I remember it right. Here are questions:

1. Are Poison Tokens lasting effects (because they last from application till they are applied). I suppose yes. But then the effect of discarding them (1Dg) may still be ruled to be an immediate effect caused by lasting effect (effectively the same as Regeneration's heal).

2. Poison is applied by the attacker, but the effect of Poison Tokens (1 Dg) is applied when the model activates by the acting player. Does it mean it is the acting player's effect?

But as I said, I believe Regeneration will go first in either case - because it is both the acting player's effect and the heal is an immediate effect.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Buhallin]

I definitely agree it doesn't stack. You choose the highest number and this applies (same as with Poison).

...

This definitely is an immediate effect.

Well, based on FearLord's argument that the blocks on Pg 20 define what makes an Ongoing or Immediate Effect, these two statements are contradictory. Immediate effects stack, Ongoing don't stack unless they're +X.

I look at an effect as something that has to be active in order to do anything. Abilities are always on, and always generate the effect - it just doesn't do anything 99% of the time. Compare it to Fast - Fast only does something at the beginning of an activation, when the model gets its AP. But the model is still always Fast. I think the same goes for Regeneration.

[Q'iq'el]

Well, based on FearLord's argument that the blocks on Pg 20 define what makes an Ongoing or Immediate Effect, these two statements are contradictory. Immediate effects stack, Ongoing don't stack unless they're +X.

Because we are talking about 2 effects here, not one.

Regeneration is an ability, not an effect. It can be an ongoing effect if you receive it from somewhere, but even then the ongoing effect would be to give model the "Regeneration X" ability.

This is not what is applied to the model at start activation phase though.

At start activation phase the ability (where it was on the card or has been applied by as an ongoing effect) triggers and applies it's immediate effect. This immediate effect is:

Heal X Wd.

This is where it gets confusing, I think. I may be overthinking it though.

I look at an effect as something that has to be active in order to do anything. Abilities are always on, and always generate the effect - it just doesn't do anything 99% of the time. Compare it to Fast - Fast only does something at the beginning of an activation, when the model gets its AP. But the model is still always Fast. I think the same goes for Regeneration.

I agree it is similar to Fast. But I think it doesn't change the timing.

Fast too may be an ability or an ongoing effect lasting till the next activation. But at the moment of activation it gives one extra General AP and goes away. This last part is immediate - you cannot dispel Fast as your Slow to Die action for example, because the extra AP has already been applied.

In other word, you can treat Fast as an ongoing effect, but it is also an ability which applies new effect on activation - that new effect is immediate.

Compare it to Use Soulstone, Armor X or something giving the model +2 to Cb for the duration of the turn. These effects are Ongoing, their effects are permanent and there is no secondary effect being applied when they go off. In a sense these are "pure" ongoing effects. Regeneration, Fast, Reactivate and several other such special rules are different in that they are either abilities (which cause the effect immediately), or lasting effects which give the model an ability and thus work like an ability when they trigger.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[FearLord]

I definitely agree it doesn't stack. You choose the highest number and this applies (same as with poison)

Based on what? Poison takes the highest number and applies that because that is what the poison rules tell you too do - compare and contrast to the regenerate rules which say no such thing...

In any event, my argument was based around the effect of wounds being healed at the start of a models activation, where we seem to agree that the effect is immediate.

Poison is an ongoing effect - the token rules make this pretty clear. Therefore - regen then poison...

[Mr_Smigs]

WAIT!

I stopped reading that argument halfway page 3 but here is an answer to you:

Definition of effect: anything applied on a model during the game which changes their attributes from what is written on their card, except for Wd loss.

later he goes on that it's not just WD loss...

modification of wounds is NOT an effect.

now. Regen, MODIFIES WOUNDS.

as pointed out Poison Tokens ARE an effect,

but

Regen is not, when it's just an ability on the card, and not granted by a spell or other ability.

so

Poison, being an Effect. a clearly defined EFFECT, would have to go first,

since Regen is just an Ability, and abilities are not listed in the timing structure.

[ravenborne]

Please give a ruling Wyrd...TECH SUPPORT!

[Mr_Smigs]

any word on this?

[Therapist]

I second lobo here. Its really not so complicated. Both are resolved at the start of the models activation so just let them both happen then see if the models dead or not. I feel dumber for having read six pages of this argument.

Also, I think the "activating player chooses" bit is a throwback from magic:the gathering, or at least thats where it came from for me. I always liked that rule and I find myself defaulting to it when that type of question comes up.

Back to the point: there is nothing (logically speaking, not through semantic dissection) that stops regen and poison from occurring simultaneously so i say just let it happen.

At least until a RM says otherwise.