timing with Triggers - Sp. Horrific Burns

[nix]

Quick question that came up in a game the other night.

aSonnia has a trigger that reads:

Cb (:rams:masks) Horrific Burns: If this weapon inflicts damage on defender, this model's Controller Pushes the defender up to 3". After this Push, eney models within 5" of defender must perform a Wp->12 Morale Duel.

So, which of the following sequences is the correct timing sequence?

Sequence A:

1. aSonnia smacks a rat and triggers horrific burns
   
2. aSonnia does enough damage to kill the rate
   
3. Rat is pushed 3 inches
   
4. enemy models within 5" of the dieing rat take a morale duel
   
5. dieing rat dies and is removed from play
   

Sequence B:

1. aSonnia smacks a rat and triggers horrific burns
   
2. aSonnia does enough damage to kill the rate
   
3. dieing rat dies (and thus cannot be pushed)
   
4. enemy models within 5" of the dieing rat take a morale duel
   
5. dieing rat is removed from play
   

And this becomes even more interesting with the following:

Sequence C:

1. aSonnia smacks Nix, triggers horrific burns, and does enough damage to kill Nix
   
2. Nix (at 0 wounds) pushes into the middle of a set of rats
   
3. Rats make morale checks due to horrific burns
   
4. 3 rats fail the moral duels
   

Does Nix now heal up 3 wd's due to the failed tests and live?

Basically, when does Horrific Burns activate in the attack sequence?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

A and C.

[nix]

A and C.

Thanks Big Guy!

My guess is on the Nix question, Nix heals?

I have to admit, with a his name you would think I would like the rotted little dog more.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Thanks Big Guy!

My guess is on the Nix question, Nix heals?

I have to admit, with a his name you would think I would like the rotted little dog more.

Yeah, he'd heal up as the morale tests are taken before he would be removed from play.

[Only Perfect]

Sorry for my confusion but the conclusion most of the community has come to about marcus and his primal reaction trigger is that if he one shots a model it never gains thee beast characteristic bc it dies. However this post seems to state that that isn't the case, unless I'm missing some thing. I blame my confusion on the lecture I just got out of. Can you maybe clear that up for me?

[Lucidicide]

So I'm no rules marshal, but my guess would be that it would gain the beast characteristic. Primal Reaction says after damaging the defender, and there is a whole thing about that Dg being applied and then it is Wd, which ends up killing the model.

I'm going off this post: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20500&highlight=guardian

You do the damage before the damage is applied, and therefore they'd become a beast.

That's my guess.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

+1 to Luci

[Buhallin]

The difference with Primal Reaction is the timing wording.

"After damaging" effects go off after the whole flow of damage has been completed, including killing a model.

In this case, the "If this weapon inflicts damage" seems to go in the "When damaging" category, which kicks off earlier.

I'll admit, I think this is one of the more confusing wording issues the game has, but it's what was intended and it keeps everything flowing well, if a bit nonintuitively.

Full timing discussion here

[Only Perfect]

I see what your saying Buhallin and I don't entirely disagree.

You seem to be looking at just the damage though, and in the above example Nix was able to be pushed, trigger horrific burns, and heal, all with 0 wounds which would imply that the primal reaction would have more than enough time to go off.

[Lucidicide]

I agree that the Ronin in the other thread's example shouldn't be able to slide away before the effects of the strike are resolved, but it also seems like Marcus hitting something makes it a Beast.

So, is there a difference between:

"After damaging"

and

"After dealing damage"

?

Edited October 6, 2011 by Lucidicide

[Only Perfect]

The wording on stuff like this has to give the guys at wyrd one of the biggest headaches ever.

Until this post I was content to just suck it up and play the two hit rule (once for primal reaction and once for the kill). I don't do the rules thing a lot on account that I usually fall in the "don't really care until it happens" group, but this is a big factor in both Marcus' scheme and his manifest requirement.

It would be nice for something set in stone, because from what I can tell everytime it has came up on the forums here it is about 50/50

[Lucidicide]

I am of the opinion (and my opinion is worthless, by the way) that all things said so far are correct.

According to Ratty's post on Dg, there seems to be a step where damage if inflicted, and a step where damage is dealt (aka resolved/suffered).

So going to the chain lovingly provided by Buhallin, we see that triggers that are after dealing damage happen after all things related to that damage happen.

However, Marcus' trigger isn't after dealing damage. It is after damaging.

Put into the context of both rules marshals' posts, I am of the opinion that Marcus' trigger is off the inflicting of damage, where the Ronin is off the dealing of damage.

Therefore Marcus' works even if the enemy dies (as does the Ronin's, mind you, just after all dying things come into effect).

EDIT: However, with allllllllll of that said, I don't see any way that, with Kel's ruling, it can actually function. They specifically mention Onslaught, and I've now checked, and that has the same wording as Marcus' trigger.

So, I guess Marcus is out of luck. It is way cooler if he turns them into a Beast as they die, though!

Edited October 6, 2011 by Lucidicide
Because things change

[Only Perfect]

Ah good point with the onslaught!

I'll have to look it over.

[Akujie]

That ronin thread had to deal with a death interrupt as well, making it a little more complex then a trigger alone.

[Only Perfect]

I think mythicFox's post that looked something like this explains it.

"Begin Damage

Begin Wounds

End Wounds

Begin Killed

End Killed

End Damage

As a result Damage begins before Wounds and Killed and ends after Wounds and Killed."

In a fluff sense it kind of works too. You know the beast doesn't have time to react to Marcus hitting it.

Oh yeah sry for hijacking this thread. We should move it some where else if you guys aren't content. As for me I'm satisfied.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Only Perfect

[Buhallin]

I see what your saying Buhallin and I don't entirely disagree.

You seem to be looking at just the damage though, and in the above example Nix was able to be pushed, trigger horrific burns, and heal, all with 0 wounds which would imply that the primal reaction would have more than enough time to go off.

It's not a matter of whether it has time to go off. It's a matter of when it does. "When damaging" triggers occur after a model is killed, and removed. So if there's no model to turn into a Beast, it just fizzles.

I'd disagree with the © scenario described above. Nix wouldn't be at 0 wounds when the push goes off - if Horrific Burns triggers "when damaging" then the damage hasn't turned into wounds yet. I do think that Nix would get the healing before he died, because you'd resolve everything from the Horrific Burns trigger before returning to the damage flow on Nix. But if he started at full wounds, I think he'd heal 3 before taking any damage, effectively not healing at all.