Special Actions and General AP (+1 Actions)

[Mr_Smigs]

As I understand it,

special actions, like Relentless, generate 1 Specific AP that can be used on that special action...

but can general AP then be spent to do the action again if the ability doesn't say it can only be used once?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I don't see why not. Unless you can give an example.

[Mr_Smigs]

ok, rough example...

a model obey's a model with Driven By Purpose, can she make it take a wound and push it?

similarly, a model obey's something with "Passion for his work" can you chose to make it discard a token to get fast?

[Ratty]

ok, rough example...

a model obey's a model with Driven By Purpose, can she make it take a wound and push it?

similarly, a model obey's something with "Passion for his work" can you chose to make it discard a token to get fast?

She can't do that as Obey does not create an activation. It just allows you to take a (1) Action or Charge. Relentless is neither of these.

[bucket_boy101]

So maybe to clarify ratty (not sure if needed) a +1 action is not a 1 action.

[Hatchethead]

(+1) action mods are just that, +1 action, an additional action (often a specific action, like a Walk action, a Strike, a (0) action, whatever). Whether or not a mod grants (+) or denies (-) general AP (like Fast and Slow) or offers something more specific is reliant on the mod itself. It's a modifier in that it modifies a model's basic allotment of AP. Only Fast generates an additional, non-specific (1) action.

(+/-) mods exist outside the regular AP structure. The majority are passive and require no player interaction. Others have a "cost" and must be "activated". McMourning has 2 AP and a (0) action. He can choose to spend a body part to gain Fast via Passion. This does not cost him either of his general AP, nor his (0). It doesn't count as an action. The cost is a body part counter. He's not always Fast, only when he has the counter to discard and a player willing to discard it.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Mr_Smigs]

ok...

so outside of Obey...

If McMorning is Slow, can he:

(+1) Action : Discard a token and gain fast (canceling slow)

then

(1 AP) : Discard a token and gain fast again.

thus protecting himself from Slow for the rest of the round?

[Ratty]

ok...

so outside of Obey...

If McMorning is Slow, can he:

(+1) Action : Discard a token and gain fast (canceling slow)

then

(1 AP) : Discard a token and gain fast again.

thus protecting himself from Slow for the rest of the round?

Nope Modifiers like that can only be used once in an activation.

[Mr_Smigs]

then, why did Weird Sketch say yes?

in the OP, I sited Relentless...

are you saying you cannot choose to do relentless more than once an activation?

[Dracomax]

On a related note(situation came up recently) can melee expert(+1) be used to make a charge? (i.e. he used 1 AP to walk, then wanted to use the remaining AP plus the +1 for melee expert to charge)

[Cunning]

On a related note(situation came up recently) can melee expert(+1) be used to make a charge? (i.e. he used 1 AP to walk, then wanted to use the remaining AP plus the +1 for melee expert to charge)

It can't. It can only be used to make a strike action. A charge is an action that can make the acting model make a strike strike, they are not the same thing.

You can't use it for flurry either.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

then, why did Weird Sketch say yes?

in the OP, I sited Relentless...

are you saying you cannot choose to do relentless more than once an activation?

In the OP you asked if you used relentless to perform a specific action, could you use General AP to perform the same specific action.

That's why I asked for an example.

Do not mis-qoute me.

[Ratty]

then, why did Weird Sketch say yes?

in the OP, I sited Relentless...

are you saying you cannot choose to do relentless more than once an activation?

You didn't ask that question.. You asked.

special actions, like Relentless, generate 1 Specific AP that can be used on that special action...

but can general AP then be spent to do the action again if the ability doesn't say it can only be used once?

So What you asked was this "If Relentless allows you to use a Specific AP to Walk, can I then use a General AP to make a Walk also"...

The Answer to this is YES you can.

If you had asked. "If I used Relentless to Walk, can I dicard a second Control Card to Walk again"...

The Answer would have been NO.

[Mr_Smigs]

In the OP you asked if you used relentless to perform a specific action, could you use General AP to perform the same specific action.

That's why I asked for an example.

Do not mis-qoute me.

I apologize, the way I intended that to be read and the way it was read seem to have been different things.

special actions, like Relentless, generate 1 Specific AP that can be used on that special action...

but can general AP then be spent to do the action again if the ability doesn't say it can only be used once?

to clarify (restaing the OP)

My current understanding of AP granting Abilities/Actions is as such:

An Ability like Relentless grants 1 Specific AP which may only be used on the Relentless Action.

This Relentless Action is a Special Action only available to the model with Relentless

Can a model spend additional General AP on a Special Action, like Relentless, if the Special Action does not state it can only be done once an activation?

then you asked for another example, I then asked about actions such as

(+1) Driven by Purpose

(+1) Passion for His Work

and other (+1) actions.

using Ratty's style of phrasing

If Relentless takes an AP (the +1 given by the ability)

can I spend an AP to Relentless again.

this all stems from not understanding how (+1) actions affect a model's AP "pool" when activating.

There are statements in the rules manual that imply that these (+1) actions are Abilities, and Abilities are always active, and thus always must be used.

but, comments on the forums have implied that because these (+1) actions are Actions, they do not have to be used.

so I'm a little confused.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Mr_Smigs
fixed game termininology in the question

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

This is correct.

So What you asked was this "If Relentless allows you to use a Specific AP to Walk, can I then use a General AP to make a Walk also"...

The Answer to this is YES you can.

If you had asked. "If I used Relentless to Walk, can I dicard a second Control Card to Walk again"...

The Answer would have been NO.

[Ratty]

Er... My phrasing is nothing like

If Relentless takes an Action (the +1 given by the ability) can I spend an AP to Relentless again.

Relentless can't take an Action it's not a model, it can generate an Action for the model it's on.

And you never spend AP to activate Relentless.

That aside, I'll assume what your asking is can I use Relentless twice so.

(+1) Abilities, allow you to gain 1 more AP in an activation. If they have a cost attached to them you may choose not to pay this cost in which case they give you no extra AP.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Ratty

[Mr_Smigs]

And you never spend AP to activate Relentless.

If you never spend AP, why is it listed as an Action with an AP value?

That aside, I'll assume what your asking is can I use Relentless twice so.

question was supposed to be more general, but as a specific example, yes.

(+1) Abilities, allow you to gain 1 more AP in an activation. If they have a cost attached to them you may choose not to pay this cost in which case they give you no extra AP.

ok, now we're getting on the same path here.

(+1) Abilities are generally listed under Actions

so the question is, since they have an Action AP value, can I spend AP to use the Ability multiple times?

if they are not Actions then why do they have an AP cost? and Why are they listed under Actions

if these are just Abilities that can be left inactive if I don't want to pay the cost, can I choose to not pay the 1 AP to activate the Ability of Slow ... and why is it different than the others?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

If you never spend AP, why is it listed as an Action with an AP value?

Page 12 of the Rules Manual:

Actions: Any specific Actions a model can perform in addition to the general Actions outlined on p.33. This also includes any AP-granting Abilities, such as (+1) Melee Expert.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

(+1) Abilities are generally listed under Actions

so the question is, since they have an Action AP value, can I spend AP to use the Ability multiple times?

if they are not Actions then why do they have an AP cost? and Why are they listed under Actions

if these are just Abilities that can be left inactive if I don't want to pay the cost, can I choose to not pay the 1 AP to activate the Ability of Slow ... and why is it different than the others?

They do NOT cost AP. Where are you pulling that from?

[Hatchethead]

I tried my best to address the question posed in your example. because I somewhat understood where you were coming from with your OP:

(+/-) mods exist outside the regular AP structure. The majority are passive and require no player interaction. Others have a "cost" and must be "activated" ... This does not cost him either of his general AP, nor his (0).

And:

It's NOT listed as an Action with an AP value. That would read as (1) Driven by Purpose or (1) Passion for his Work. It's listed as a modifier (+1), (-1), etc. The "+" and "-" make all the difference here. These action modifiers (hence why they are listed under Actions) add or deny a model AP (general or more often specific). They do not cost AP to use and have a cost associated only if the description says as much; discarding a card, taking a wound, etc.

If a mod has a cost associated with it, it is then up to the player to decide whether or not to pay the cost and "activate" the mod. You will never see a mod like this:

(-1) Stupid: Discard a control card. This model receives Slow.

... because no one would ever choose to discard a card and become Slow.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Hatchethead]

Actually, going back and re-reading page 33 and 34 of the RM, it would seem I've been misusing the term "action modifier". It appears the term applies only to the four game Abilities that increase and decrease general AP: Fast, Slow, Paralyzed and Reactivate.

All other Abilities that grant or deny AP are referred to as "specific AP Abilities" ... I suppose because they grant specific AP instead of general, they wanted to differentiate. Not sure if the distinction was strictly necessary, as these Abilities all modify the AP a model potentially receives, be it general of specific.

Still, all of my points stand, pardon the misuse of terminology.

Some of your confusion, Smigs, likely stems from the fact that all (+/-) Talents are Abilities ... but are listed under Actions ... as per the section Sketch quoted on page 12 of the RM. "These Abilities are listed in the model's Actions entry for ease of reference."

You would have to ask one of the devs why an Ability listed under the Action heading is meant to "ease reference".

I suppose since these Abilities grant additional action points, it makes sense to list them under Actions if only to remind the player, to ensure they do not forget their precious bonus AP. When deciding how best to spend my AP, I'm generally looking at my Actions and my Spells. It does make intuitive sense, when you think about it.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Mr_Smigs]

ok...

if the (+1) is not the AP cost and a note that the ability generates the AP for the cost,

is the (+1) like (+1)Melee Expert where it grants an AP?

this is where I'm confused to start.

lets do a comparison:

(+1) Melee Expert generates 1 AP that can only be used for Melee attacks.

(+1) Relentless generates what?

if it doesn't generate AP, then it's not modifying AP, why is it listed in the Actions section?

there are other Abilities that provide movement that are not in the Action section... they don't have the (+1) modifier.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

(+1) Relentless generates what?

if it doesn't generate AP, then it's not modifying AP, why is it listed in the Actions section?

there are other Abilities that provide movement that are not in the Action section... they don't have the (+1) modifier.

It generates a Walk. And it's a movement that requires the discarding of a card, which is different from other movement type abilities.

This question has been answered.