Stargazer Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Punk Zombies are always going to be available to the AoD with a (0) action and an 8 of Crows. We might be better off starting off with something that he won't have access to after Manifestation. One slight weakness I can see the horde of MZ is making sure that they stay within 10" and 6" of the AoD. Belles will help herd the MZs on top of their other uses. Is Sebastian's main use to kill the dogs on the first action of the first turn? Is that necessary? Can we replace Seb and still make this work? A 2nd turn Manifestation won't give Nicodem much time to summon a heavy hitter, especially if you want some MZs until the 3rd turn, since Nicodem's only action during the 2nd turn is going to be Manifesting. I agree the PZs will be available however you are then relying on getting a decent crow and you aren't creating more MZs, in regard to keeping the MZs near AoD just try to keep them in BtB with him and it really isn't that hard, basically surround AoD with a hoard and move as a solid block towards the enemy, that's how I would play it from what I can see.. Yep Seb's use is exactly that needing a 9 of anything, he is also no slouch in melee and can collect up corpse counters on the board to turn into body parts for Rafkin and himself. A Seb Rafkin tag team is a little scary. With 4+ PZs I'm not convinced a heavy hitter is necessary but if you did want one you could drop the original PZs and take a Rogue Necro. btw has anyone else noticed AoDs lack interaction with corpse counters? What does placed mean in the context of restless dead? Say a dog or seb passes a corpse counter to AoD does it count as being placed within 6"? If so that's another use for Seb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atherzon Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 (edited) How many corpse counters will we have in the mix just prior to manifestation in turn 2? I'm not entirely sure how Rafkin works ... Rafkin has an action that let's him gain a Body Part Counter for every Corpse Counter that is sacrificed or discarded within 6". He has an all Action that requires a 9 of Crows that allows him to discard any number of Body Part Counters and summon a MZ for every two Body Part Counter discarded. Edited August 27, 2011 by Atherzon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Rafkin has an action that let's him gain a Body Part Counter for every Corpse Counter that is sacrificed or discarded within 6". He has an all Action that requires a 9 of Crows that allows him to discard any number of Body Part Counters and summon a MZ for every Body Part Counter discarded. For every 2 BPs so not as effective as it might seem at first glance.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atherzon Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 btw has anyone else noticed AoDs lack interaction with corpse counters? What does placed mean in the context of restless dead? Say a dog or seb passes a corpse counter to AoD does it count as being placed within 6"? If so that's another use for Seb. Restless Dead specifies 'placed on the table', so I don't think passing them to AoD would trigger it. Now, if something carrying a load of Corpse Counters dies within 6", then you get a MZ for each counter it carried plus the one(s) it dropped when it died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Keep in mind, those MZs do not move with the Avatar of Decay. They "launch" Nicodem, but do not stay with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atherzon Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 For every 2 BPs so not as effective as it might seem at first glance.. Yes, for every two. Fixed the typo. Still very good in conjunction with Restless Dead, since Rafkin will get a BP every time Restless Dead is used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Keep in mind, those MZs do not move with the Avatar of Decay. They "launch" Nicodem, but do not stay with him. True but you can "leapfrog" 2 groups of MZs so AoD launches from one to the next in the turn with the second group catching up after AoD has gone this keeps him surrounded at all times and hopefully means most of the MZs keep coming back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 True but you can "leapfrog" 2 groups of MZs so AoD launches from one to the next in the turn with the second group catching up after AoD has gone this keeps him surrounded at all times and hopefully means most of the MZs keep coming back What I picture is constant use of Mass Grave to keep things going, followed by the other MZs double timing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargazer Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 ^ That could work although I'd be worried about exposing AoD after "launch" which is why the group method could work.. I agree with the using Mass Grave to "top up" the numbers of MZs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 ^ That could work although I'd be worried about exposing AoD after "launch" which is why the group method could work.. I agree with the using Mass Grave to "top up" the numbers of MZs You have to anticipate your opponent, of course. You're not just going to hurl AoD 11" to Lilith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Which brings me to another point. MORE MZ SCULPTS, PLEASE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 (edited) Which brings me to another point. MORE MZ SCULPTS, PLEASE! Yes! Two more blisters of three unique sculpts if you want me to be tourney legal, Wyrd. Just sayin'. Also: Mass Grave?? Sounds boss. Book 3. I officially resign myself to lurker status in this thread. I've got more questions than solutions. Edited August 27, 2011 by Hatchethead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Yes! Two more blisters of three unique sculpts if you want me to be tourney legal, Wyrd! Just sayin'. Also: Mass Grave?? Sounds boss. Book 3! I officially resign myself to lurker status in this thread. I've got more questions than solutions. Mass Grave is impressively good. Counterless zombie summoning! Also the flip is cheatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Counterless zombie summoning! Also the flip is cheatable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atherzon Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Mass Grave is impressively good. Counterless zombie summoning! Also the flip is cheatable. Mass Grave does not state that the flip is cheatable. Are all flips cheatable unless it specifically says otherwise? But, yes, Mass Grave is good. A (0) action to get zombies with no cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 All duels are cheatable. Outside of that it needs to state that it's cheatable (like a damage flip, for instance). Is it a (0) Spell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atherzon Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 It is a (0) action and is not a duel, just a flip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Mass Grave does not state that the flip is cheatable. Are all flips cheatable unless it specifically says otherwise? Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Yep. Guh? I thought only duels were straight up cheatable? Any other flip needs to be specified ... like how Mort's Exhume wasn't cheatable until it was. Or I could be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 Guh? I thought only duels were straight up cheatable? Any other flip needs to be specified ... like how Mort's Exhume wasn't cheatable until it was. Or I could be wrong. I always though Exhume got errata'd because people weren't sure if you could cheat it or not. In the absence of definition, being able to Cheat Mass Grave makes the most sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 I always though Exhume got errata'd because people weren't sure if you could cheat it or not. In the absence of definition, being able to Cheat Mass Grave makes the most sense. Hmm. I've always played it that only duels are cheatable + any flip that specifically say so (damage). Flips like damage prevention, healing flips and other one-offs are always regarded as not cheatable unless specified. Here's a quote from Ratty (circa 2010), from a random cheat-related thread courtesy of the forum search: Also you can normally only cheat fate in Duels and for Damage. most other flips don't allow it (eg Healing flips). Though sometimes a ability will say your allowed to cheat it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 But Healing Flips are specifically barred from being Cheated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 (edited) But Healing Flips are specifically barred from being Cheated. Yeah. There's a thread on that, too. I know because a local player asked me this very thing less than a week ago. "It specifies that healing flips are not cheatable. Does that mean damage prevention flips are cheatable (in the absence of the specification)?" I jumped on the ol' iPhone, hit up the forum search and stumbled across this thread (see question #2 in the OP). Nerdelemental clears it up in the second post. Q'ig'el goes into a little more detail in post #5, as well. I guess the healing flip specification was added during an early draft of the RM and then overlooked by accident. It's redundant. Edited August 27, 2011 by Hatchethead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 I think the problem is that there are so few flips outside of Spells, Duels, Resists, Healing and Prevention. There really aren't any specific guidelines for what happens when something not in the included list comes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted August 27, 2011 Report Share Posted August 27, 2011 (edited) I think the problem is that there are so few flips outside of Spells, Duels, Resists, Healing and Prevention. There really aren't any specific guidelines for what happens when something not in the included list comes up. True. I could have sworn there was something in the RM that at least implied my interpretation, but I don't have the Manual on hand so I can't back that up ... I'm sure Ratty or Sketch or one of the other Marshal's could clear this up in a New York minute. Edited August 27, 2011 by Hatchethead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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