Question : Defining terms : State and Event

[Mr_Smigs]

Ok, just getting back into the game, and heard a bit about buried models not expiring spell effects...

so trying to chase down the logic, i hit two terms I couldn't find definitions for: (from the "Buried/Killed/Sacrifice" section and from the "Game Effect" section)

1. What is the "State of the Model"? (What page defines this?)

2. What is a "game event"? (What page defines this?)

This lead to the question of what is considered "IN GAME" events (for lack of a better term) and "IN PLAY" events (for lack of a better term)

[nerdelemental]

I'd have to see those terms in context - from what source, to help there.

However, your buried question is pretty easily answered: Buried is defined as "removed from play". That is, the model is effectively not in the game. It's in the exact same state as all the other models you own still in foam trays in your bag. When any game state event (see, I'm trying to play with the words!) says "kill any model with a booger spell on it" the game looks around for boogered models and doesn't get to see any that are buried so it simply cannot affect them. When a different effect says "unbury some model" that's really the only effect remembered and it can point at a model with a flashing siren on its head and a klaxon going off saying "I'M CURRENTLY BURIED! UNBURY ME!"

[Mr_Smigs]

I'd have to see those terms in context - from what source, to help there.

tiny book (newest rules) - See section on "Game Effects" (Statement reads : "A Game Effect is anything that changes the state of a model" or something very close to that)

-See Section on "Buried" in the first paragraph is states that a model out of play is unaffected by game effects and game events

However, your buried question is pretty easily answered: Buried is defined as "removed from play". That is, the model is effectively not in the game.

the buried section defines "in the game" and "in play" as two separate qualifiers.

It's in the exact same state as all the other models you own still in foam trays in your bag.

this would imply I can "unbury" a model in my transport bag that's not on my army list (they are the same "state" after all...) this is a dangerous statement.

thankfully, the rule book mentions that Buried is not "out of game" (it would help if "out of game" was clarified as "the models in your army bag not in your army list"....)

so, no it's not the same "state".

Killed - model is out of game AND out of play. Killed has two changes to the model's position in the game, not just one.

In logic "A leads to B. And A Leads to C." does not mean "C leads to B"

When any game state event (see, I'm trying to play with the words!) says "kill any model with a booger spell on it" the game looks around for boogered models and doesn't get to see any that are buried so it simply cannot affect them.

"game state" and "game event" are still undefined.

When a different effect says "unbury some model" that's really the only effect remembered and it can point at a model with a flashing siren on its head and a klaxon going off saying "I'M CURRENTLY BURIED! UNBURY ME!"

not questioning the current logic of "Buried" it's been explained to me in detail without having to refer to the forums.

looking for the definitions of the terms presented in the newest rule book

Using Buried as an example because it's the term connected to both of the terms in question:

"Buried" is a very clearly defined term, with it's own collection of exceptions to the "Out of Play" defined term.

the problem is "Out of Play" is not clearly defined as it references "Game Events" and "Game Effects" (the former having no definition)

and "Game Effects" is not well defined because it references "the state of the model" which also has no definition.

then it all circles back around to the difference between

"In Game" and "In Play"

now the local Hench was kind enough to bring up, basically, the concept of nested loops or Object Classes (to use programming jargon) as a way of differentiating between the two, but, currently, there is no clearly defined line between them...

Currently

Buried -> See "Out of Play" and NOT "Out of Game"

"Out of Play" -> Immune to "Game Effects" and "Game Events" (see each)

"Game Event" -> file not found

"Game Effect" -> Anything that changes state of model (See: "State of Model")

"State of Model" -> file not found

[Mr_Smigs]

so.... no other responses?

has this question never come up before? seems kinda important...

[nilus]

so.... no other responses?

has this question never come up before? seems kinda important...

They guys and gals at Wyrd are buried under 2000+ Gencon online orders, so responses are a bit slow.

Also RE: Your signature. Its not some grand conspiracy to encourage card counting. All Signatures were deleted about a month or two ago because people kept abusing the rules and making gigantic signatures. So Nathan deleted everyones and reminded everyone to keep them at the currently defined size.

[Mr_Smigs]

ah, thanks for the heads up on both... I'll be a little more patient and fix that sig...

[Dustcrusher]

When a different effect says "unbury some model" that's really the only effect remembered and it can point at a model with a flashing siren on its head and a klaxon going off saying "I'M CURRENTLY BURIED! UNBURY ME!"

Now I'm picturing Buried tokens (to place on stat cards) that say "I'M CURRENTLY BURIED! UNBURY ME!" on them. Better yet, some sort of body bag-looking things to place over models currently buried.

[Mr_Smigs]

wonderful guys, but can we stay on target?

i did notice at the bottom of the "Effects" section that an "event" (NOTE: not "GAME EVENT") can have multiple "effects"... then elaborates with a spell...

which could be read to imply that a game event is an action taken by an active model.

but that still leaves to question if that's true,

and again, what is the state of the model?

I was wondering if that whole part is supposed to be worded

"A game effect is the result of any action, spell, or talent used by an active model that changes the stats of a model"

at which point, the question of "is a phase of the game a game event?"

[T3tsuya]

Oh hey I remember you from the recent phoenix tournament.

Was this the same question you were talking with the Henchman for about a half an hour over? Over whether or not effects stayed on models in lord chompy bit's crew if they activated them and then got buried until the next turn? I would have thought that would have gotten resolved by the end.

[Mr_Smigs]

yes, that's me.

no. different question. (TO gave his ruling on that one, and I'll not argue with the TO. his event, his rules.)

while related (and thus using it as an example) it's more of "there's something missing here" than a straight on rules question...

much like with the old "(0) Companion" powers that had a flaw in the logic (where intent and wording did not match) we have a statement in the new rules that implies intent,

but is missing definition,

and as there are already a couple of questions (there's a reactivate one that also seems to be tied to this...) connected to this... I feel the need to get clarity before I encounter anything else related to it...

[Calmdown]

You're correct that those two terms are undefined.

They also have zero relevance as they are never referenced anywhere.

The only relevant part of buried is that "the model is removed from play", which is defined as to its effects.

Although in this case I'd argue that state of a model does not need to be defined as it is not just fairly obvious, but 100% obvious what that means; anything that does anything to a model. ie, while you are buried, nothing can be done to you in any way.

[Mr_Smigs]

what? never referenced anywhere?

How about: Page 19, under Game Effects. First Sentence (state of the model)

and How about: Page 13, under Models In Play vs. Out of Play, second Sentence.

part of the very definition of out of play.

did you even read the thread, or are you just trolling?

[magicpockets]

Isn't a game event part of the encounter flips for location such as Rockfall or HeatWave? Don't have my book to hand, but rings a bell.

[Mr_Smigs]

Those are "Location Features" (a clearly labeled/defined catagory) with a subset of "Special Events" and "Special Terrain" (again, clearly defined...)

much of the game vocabulary is in the Index... that's why I'm so baffled about "state of the model" and "game event" as the authors were so careful to catch most of the other terms...

[Calmdown]

Those are "Location Features" (a clearly labeled/defined catagory) with a subset of "Special Events" and "Special Terrain" (again, clearly defined...)

much of the game vocabulary is in the Index... that's why I'm so baffled about "state of the model" and "game event" as the authors were so careful to catch most of the other terms...

But they haven't caught everything or we wouldn't have this subforum

[Mr_Smigs]

ok,

Ongoing Effects lists "armor" in the example...

implying Armor changes the state of the model...

so is the state of a model just a blank card with a stat line?

is "damage" considered an "effect"?

perdita's Spellbreaker lists "counters" (assuming it means "tokens") separate from effects... are counters Effects (do they change the state of the model?)

[Q'iq'el]

Damage definitely is an effect. It happens to be immediate effect, so after it gets applied, it is gone and there's nothing left on the card to steal, remove or otherwise change. It also has a set of its own rules governing the application of this particular effect, so many things work differently from other effects.

Most of effects permanently modyfying stats work more or less the same way damage does, though, while the temporary buffs/debuffs tend to either come from Auras or in form of long-term effects.

The simple reason why "Model's status" isn't otherwise defined is that it's meaning is obvious from the sentence in which it is referenced, as Calmdown has said.

An effect is something which changes model's status. Model's status is something changed by an effect. Whenever you see a *change* (which is the underlying term here) you deal with the subject (the effect) operating (changing) the object (model's status).

Without a change, there's no effect and no model's status to be interested in and the terms have no further bearing on the game outside of the mechanic which both references and defines them. I think that also is what Calmdown said, when he mentioned definition being irrelevant for the rest of the game.

Edited August 30, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Mr_Smigs]

An effect is something which changes model's status. Model's status is something changed by an effect.

again, fallacy of the converse. this is a logical error, you cannot define a word with itself.

when he mentioned definition being irrelevant for the rest of the game.

except that anything that uses an effect references back to it.

the game only has a limited number of terms to use, many are related.

thankfully in another thread, definition of "game effect" has changed, making things more clear.

I stopped reading that argument halfway page 3 but here is an answer to you:

Definition of effect: anything applied on a model during the game which changes their attributes from what is written on their card, except for Wd loss.

This includes stuff like: modifications to stats and additional Talents from Talents and Spells, debuffs applied on the model by another model's Talent or Spell (Censure, Undead Psychosis, Hex, etc.), states of models (Defensive Stance, Falling Back, etc.) and ongoing Auras (the effect must be removed from the model the Aura originates from). Maybe some other stuff too which I don't remember at the moment. The point is that effects are temporal and change the model from what is written on their card.

Stuff that are definitely not effects are as follows (but not limited to): Wd loss, model's position on the board, Counters and Tokens (the latter get a specific mention in the spell so all is well), anything written on the model's stat card originally, attributes of terrain (you can't remove Severe or Impassable from a terrain piece), instantaneous Actions like Pulses (though if they have lasting effects those effects can be removed).

Note that in some cases an effect on a model originates from a lasting effect on another model (for example an Aura) or a piece of terrain. These can be removed from the affected model but they will be immediately reapplied by the lasting effect.

-Ropetus

a definition, which does not agree with yours.

there are a notable number of "changes" that do not count as "effects"

by your argument, change is now also an undefined term in the game...

Edited August 30, 2011 by Mr_Smigs

[Mr_Smigs]

was thinking about this... alot of the rules discussions i've seen where state becomes a key thing could be fixed with an easy adjustment/definition...

The State of a Model - has two classifications, the "Current" state, and the "Initial State"

• The Initial State of a model is exactly how it reads on the cards, with all stats unaltered by any abilities.
  

• The current state of a model is the model as it stands on the table in the current turn. This includes effects waiting to be cleared.
  

How this would've helped.

Buried Clarification - A buried model does not end effects on its current state as it is "out of play." (Stitched Together would still be sacrificed if buried as it's "current state" under the effect is "sacrificed at the beginning of the closing phase" as sacrifice adds the "out of the game" status there is no loss of effect.)

Spellbreaker clarification - Ability should read "return model to its initial state, except for wounds."

Shrug Off Clarification - ability would read "remove one effect that is not part of the model's initial state..."

Talent granting Clarification - Talents are still effects (as defined by the core rules), and thus abilities that end effects would still remove them (this would go back to rewording those abilities/spells/talents to use references to State of the model)

simple. consistent rulings that don't require splitting hairs on the definition of effect

further, canceled/ended effects could simply get an entry that says

abilities that end effects cannot remove effects from the initial state of the model unless specifically stated.