Perfect Machine and not targeting

[Therril_83]

Me and a friend were discussing a rule the other day, and since I ordered a model where this might be an issue I thought better to get it cleared before I start using that model.

I tried searching both on the forum and using Googles "site:"-option but I couldn't find anything related, so I hope this is a new one.

If you have an ability that affects you when a construct is involved, but you don't actually target that construct, can it be negated via Perfect Machine?

The example that brought it up is a Freikorps Trapper vs Ramos. The Trapper get's on damage when targeting beasts or constructs with his rifle.

My friend argued that because he needs to target a construct, and Ramos can ignore being a construct, the trapper can't get the bonus. But I read it more as this is an effect on the trapper that doesn't target Ramos in any way, therefore Ramos cannot ignore it. I don't read it as Ramos stops being a construct, he can just chose to ignore certain effects that happen to target them, and the Trapper's effect targets the Trapper himself, not Ramos.

Anyone care discuss?

[Wulfen]

The wording you just gave shows that the Trapper is indeed targeting a construct. Ramos can choose not to be, thus ignoring that . If Ramos is not a construct when the Trapper targets him, how can you get that plus flip?

[Buhallin]

For starters, Ramos never stops being a construct. He can just ignore effects that target constructs.

As to the original question... It's an interesting one, but I think Ramos can ignore it. The core question is whether the Trapper's ability targets Ramos, or just enhances his own attack passively (thus not targeting anything, or maybe just targeting the Trapper himself).

If you read the 'Declaring a Target' on pg 14 of the Rules Manual, it covers declaring targets for effects, not abilities or talents or attacks. It's certainly an odd way to read it, but I believe that the Trapper's damage ability is actually targeting Ramos - just that the restrictions limit that to constructs that he shoots.

It's kinda in-the-weeds, but that feels like the intent to me (always dangerous, admittedly) and I think it works.

[keiichiro]

I think this is RAW vs RAI...

I'd go with Ramos NOT giving the trapper the extra flip on damage, since he's only a construct when it is convenient for him to be a construct.

[sephiroa]

well, the trapper gets when targetting constructs, but the perfect machine can ignore effects that targets constructs, the is an effect created by the weapon when targetting constructs. meaning that trapper doesn't get his because of the perfect machine.

that's my opinion

[Therril_83]

The wording you just gave shows that the Trapper is indeed targeting a construct. Ramos can choose not to be, thus ignoring that . If Ramos is not a construct when the Trapper targets him, how can you get that plus flip?

No, you misunderstood me. Reason I am not actually quoting the rule is because I don't have neither book nor card here.

What happens is, the trapper makes an ordinary ranged strike targeting Ramos. Nothing special here, nothing specifically targeting constructs. But because Ramos is a construct, an effect takes place targeting the trapper, giving him . Ramos can not stop being a construct, and there is nothing targeting him other than a perfectly ordinary ranged strike.

[marshimartian]

I'd say since Trappers ability is on his weapon, and it doesn't say "Target Construct" that perfect machine would not come into play

[Headcase2]

The Trapper gets the , because it's an effect of the Clockwork Rifle that occurs whenever he damages a construct or beast with a strike.

[Tograth]

But Headcase, Ramos is only a construct when he wants to be. at that stage, he chooses not to be. no plus to damage.

[bucket_boy101]

The effect actually doesn't target. It does not target Ramos, so he cannot choose to ignore his Construct Characteristic.

[Therril_83]

But Headcase, Ramos is only a construct when he wants to be. at that stage, he chooses not to be. no plus to damage.

Again, he can not stop being a construct, he can just ignore effects targeting them. A subtle, but quite noteworthy difference.

[Headcase2]

As the above two posters pointed out already: Ramos is, and always will be, a construct.

[Therril_83]

Any more thoughts on this?

[Calmdown]

RAW, the extra damage effects Ramos. The strike is not an effect that targets constructs, and the extra damage is just something extra that he gets against constructs. The extra damage doesn't target.

The ability stops you doing things like Collodi's Deconstruct (name?) or Hoffman's Override Edict that specifically target constructs.

An interesting question is whether it can ignore Alyce's Rust, since she can choose to do that to Ramos because he has armour rather than because he is a construct, but it is still an ability that targets constructs by its wording...

Edited August 23, 2011 by Calmdown

[Barney]

An interesting question is whether it can ignore Alyce's Rust, since she can choose to do that to Ramos because he has armour rather than because he is a construct, but it is still an ability that targets constructs by its wording...

I was wondering about this as well.