moob Posted July 15, 2011 Report Share Posted July 15, 2011 I've only fairly recently started up Malifaux, previously I've played a bunch of 40k/Fantasy/Warmachine. In those systems, you either have one or two lists at a tournament. The two tournaments I've been two here have you simply choosing a faction only. The idea of constructing your list from scratch based on the faction that your opponent has is new to me, it's a nice twist from what I'm used to and I quickly learned it's a big part of the tournament setting - selecting the right list for what your opponent is playing. That said, what do people typically take when paired up against an opponent who is playing Outcasts? I've only played them twice so far, once against Hamelin the Plagued and another against Von Schill mercs. Had I taken Sonnia against Von Schill, I'd have been in a world of hurt with all of them having magic resist 1, armor 1, and immunity to blasts.. Perdita seems like a good choice against both him and Hamelin, but then if they take Ophelia's crew, they all have +'s against you with similar shooting except a bunch more guys. I haven't yet played Hoffman, would he be a good choice against them? I'd love to hear thoughts on what kind of crew you'd take (master + minions) against Outcasts and any reasons why, lets say at the 35ss level. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cerealkiller195 Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Hmm that's a good question, I only have Sonnia and Lucius so my experience is fairly limited when it comes to guessing what my opponent may bring. To me it really boils down to what the strategy is. Most times it is easier to play to the mission than to try and guess what your opponent is bringing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshimartian Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 Hmm that's a good question, I only have Sonnia and Lucius so my experience is fairly limited when it comes to guessing what my opponent may bring. To me it really boils down to what the strategy is. Most times it is easier to play to the mission than to try and guess what your opponent is bringing. I've got to agree with this. What Outcasts lose in versatility, they gain in variability, you never know what you could be playing against. Best guess, however, is Perdita, she has the strongest stats, but don't use a whole Ortega crew if you're concerned about Ophelia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shank Seamus! Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 I would have to agree with cerealkiller, I wouldn't worry so much about what your opponent is taking as both 'should' be selecting what would win the mission for you. SS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastnerv Posted July 16, 2011 Report Share Posted July 16, 2011 I will also agree on Perdita being our best choice against Outcast crews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGreen Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Sonnia is the best choice against Outcasts I beleive. The main reason being is she is the only Guild master that stands a chance against Hamilen. Lividicus almost auto looses to Guild Astringers and any Guild master can take them. The rest of the Outcast masters can be taken care of with minnions, like the Peace Keeper and the Exicutinor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 The main reason being is she is the only Guild master that stands a chance against Hamilen. umm... immune to influence. perdita definitely has a very good chance, if not the best chance, against hamelin. always bring austringers against outcasts, they mess up every crew. ophelia's crew gets +1 Dg against the family, but she is still "perdita-lite" and not quite as good as the real thing so you shouldn't really be worried about them as much as the other outcasts crews Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGreen Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 umm... immune to influence. perdita definitely has a very good chance, if not the best chance, against hamelin. always bring austringers against outcasts, they mess up every crew. ophelia's crew gets +1 Dg against the family, but she is still "perdita-lite" and not quite as good as the real thing so you shouldn't really be worried about them as much as the other outcasts crews Have you played against Hamelin? He will just make Perdita insignificant and then she can't even tartet him. So what's she going to do? Kill a rat? Oh hey look the rat comes back. With Criid she can still use her blasts to kill Hamelin and then also clear out the rats once the Austringers kill the rat catcher. Criid may not be able to dodge the flute very easy buy for everything els she has counterspell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad the Mad Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 The idea of constructing your list from scratch based on the faction that your opponent has is new to me, it's a nice twist from what I'm used to and I quickly learned it's a big part of the tournament setting - selecting the right list for what your opponent is playing. As others have said already, I think the point is to construct a list geared for your strategies, while considering what scheme's you'll take afterwards as well. Of course, your opponents faction might influence your choice somewhat, but as many factions have masters who's styles radically differ, I find it hard to build a faction-tailored list. The Outcasts might have the most diverse Masters and Henchmen, but other factions also have enough variety to make it difficult to build a beat-them-all list. Zoraida, Pandora and Lilith; Ramos and Colette; Kirai and Seamus etc. - all of these play quite differently compared to each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Have you played against Hamelin? He will just make Perdita insignificant and then she can't even tartet him. So what's she going to do? Kill a rat? Oh hey look the rat comes back. With Criid she can still use her blasts to kill Hamelin and then also clear out the rats once the Austringers kill the rat catcher. Criid may not be able to dodge the flute very easy buy for everything els she has counterspell. have you read immune to influence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastnerv Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Yeah, Perdita can own Hamelin so hard. Her crews are able to pick out the choice targets (why are you shooting rats?) and just shrug off the bad effects. You also get some awesome mobility depending on how you build the crew. Having the chance to "family bomb" helps you out a lot on picking off targets on the jump or snagging objectives when needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cerealkiller195 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Immune to influence would not help against the pipes trigger would it? Also stolen doing their all action will make you insignificant unless you have cards to burn. Being one of my two masters against Hamelin I do favor Sonnia for many reasons. I can stay out of los to target him, witchling stalkers can dispel insignificant, as well as some of the ortega family with shrug off etc. But like I said mission does matter on who I'm going to pick when I need mobility Lucius is king but taking quarters/prevention is Sonnias forte. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Immune to influence would not help against the pipes trigger would it? she is a master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cerealkiller195 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 The pipes trigger doesn't mention anything about a master? While obedience specifically says it cannot target a master. The trigger just says model must pass WP > final combat total or become insignificant. Because it is not a duel per se? she would not gain her immune to influence? the same way she would not be immune to terror because it is a test rather than an outright duel she can ignore? i'll admit that i am JUST returning to the fold of malifaux as of lately as it came back into "rotation" in our group. So most of the rules/rulings i knew about were from the first 2 books as our group slowly goes through the rules manual to spot anything different (there are a few things..). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucket_boy101 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Key thing is that anything that says "Pass a Wp-->XYZ or else_____" is a WP duel. I don't care if XYZ is Bunnies or 111, it's still a Wp Duel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 The pipes trigger doesn't mention anything about a master? http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19972 do you have a card? pipes can not be used on a master. Key thing is that anything that says "Pass a Wp-->XYZ or else_____" is a WP duel. I don't care if XYZ is Bunnies or 111, it's still a Wp Duel. it is a Wp duel. It is not a Wp duel in which you are the defender however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucket_boy101 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 You're right, it has to say something like: "Target must pass a Wp-->XYZ duel or else____". Then it's a WP duel, where the model taking the duel is the defender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigGreen Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 have you read immune to influence? And? Have you read the Stolen card? No WP duel, so she will still become insignificant. But alas we are all entitled to our own opinion. I still say Criid would be the best choice. Plus who cares about immune to influence? Anything anyone in Hamelins army tries to cast on Cridd she can get rid of for the low low cost of one book. Yeah, Perdita can own Hamelin so hard. Her crews are able to pick out the choice targets (why are you shooting rats?) and just shrug off the bad effects. You also get some awesome mobility depending on how you build the crew. Having the chance to "family bomb" helps you out a lot on picking off targets on the jump or snagging objectives when needed. Everything Perdita can take Lady J, Criid, and the Hoff can take as well. The "Family bomb" isn't going to do much considering Hamelin will just be able to out activate you and then take you down once you have nothing left that's any good at shooting stuff. Plus a lot of your stuff is going to be getting soft cover if your doing it right making anything short of a master shooting at it not worth very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cerealkiller195 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 ahh okay i sort of get what you mean, but thats just the "pipes" weapon ability (which says when causing severe damage on wp 5 non master), it doesn't say it needs to cause severe damage if the trigger goes off and says "must pass wp or insignificant". In which case "immune to influence" would still be helpful against that test? but it could still in theory go after masters... just not low WP 5 masters... as you would need the trigger to go off. because the trigger just says: CB :masks :masks haunting melody (pipes) after resolving this weapons damage flip, the defender model must win a WP > this model's combat total or gain insignificant until end of encounter. not the pipes weapon ability which is: - "Pipes" now say 'When this Weapon inflicts severe damage on a non-Master model with Wp5 or less....' I am just looking at the old book, or did they just remove the trigger completely on his cards with the errata? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Not forgetting that every ortega has shrug off so that it makes that particular matchup about pointless for hamelin to try and make the crew insignificant. And the stolen action thingy should never happen unless he makes one close to you and if he is close to the ortega crew he is getting alpha'd off the effing board real fast if you focus target priority on nix, stolen, and hamelin. While I agree with the posters in that both sonnia and perdita both have decent matchup's against hamelin, the main reason is mainly due to each master/crew having access to shrug off/dispel insignificant off which is something that no other faction/master/crew has currently in the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serigala Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 In a tournament (or competitive setting) where only Faction is declared you might have to play the meta-game. Your opponent will probably choose their Master/Henchman depending on a combination of their scheme and your declared Faction. If you can predict what they will take then you might be one step closer to choosing an appropriate counter. You might be able to influence their choice by getting out a particular set of models before you declare the Master you are actually using. :vb_devil: In reality, most Outcasts players probably won't have all the options, or they will be favouring a particular crew, so you shouldn't be guessing completely blind. I favour the Viks, with either Ronin or Freikorps, but also have Ophelia. I wouldn't be terribly worried about facing any of the Guild options, with any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cerealkiller195 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Agreed guild have the least to worry about insignificant just because of shrug off/dispel magic or sonnia's ability. Which has me questioning exactly how do other factions deal with Hamelin? my friend asked me recently how would he defeat hamelin with his resser crew? For now i only play Lucius and Sonnia crews though I do have a healthy selection to pick from. I know that soon enough i would play Lady J and Perdita only because i have an odd idea for their lists: Dead Justice Box (Lady J, Judge, 3x Death Marshal) blister of Guild Autopsies (3x Guild Guard) and Lady J's totem. The main reason for this list is so that it looks in theme with the amazing Nightmare edition Dead Justice Box! How effective it is? no clue but it would look cool! Second idea/list is: Perdita w/ enslaved nephilim Jack Daw Abelua Ortega Convict Gunslinger Nino Ortega i'll admit its a very trick oriented list based around discard/kill effects, though you have to be very careful when playing or army will really fall apart. Like i said its a very tricky list to play never in a competitive environment (till i play test get the hang of it) but should be funny to field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 When I played my first matchup against hamelin I used colette. I just took kill protege and sabotage and I luckily drew slaughter as my strat. I focused on completing the schemes quickly and he had destroy evidence one so I sat the duet, jack daw, and colette on them. I took daw instead of cassandra due to her being wp 5 so I didn't have to worry about pipe trigger, and I used daw to just walk around to within 6'' of hame and put up no cheat/ss aura. And when I didn't have to move daw twice to keep up I would use him to target kill stolen. Me personally my take on Hamelin is that you must target stolen first and foremost due to basically negating his fast by always having to making 1 stolen due to them all dieing via target priority It greatly helps to have jack daw due to 12'' ranged surpressed attack ignoring harmless via terrifing and wp 7 for the paralyze check makes it easier than most and not having to cheat a bunch to target the stolen. Also if nix dies the hamelin player will have to be conservitive with hamelin cause if you kill all stolen then kill hamelin they just lose unless they have completed all their vp before you do. Also with guild preferably ortegas you have a range advantage that only hamelin himself can match no stolen should ever get to within 6" of any of your models unless you are purposley sacrificing said model to draw out hamelin into a kill zone, also with stubborn and say a gov proxy every ortega when defending in a duel (barring abuela and perdita who would be 9 but immune to influence) have a wp of 10 when defending so just about 5/6 times when your taking resist to any wp resist ability from their crew (barring hamelin spending ss) they do not have a chance at getting anything threw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookers Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 because the trigger just says: CB :masks :masks haunting melody (pipes) after resolving this weapons damage flip, the defender model must win a WP > this model's combat total or gain insignificant until end of encounter. that's true. he could. he needs a mask and he needs to actually hit perdita. this is also less of a problem because of this. Not forgetting that every ortega has shrug off so that it makes that particular matchup about pointless for hamelin to try and make the crew insignificant. And the stolen action thingy should never happen unless he makes one close to you and if he is close to the ortega crew he is getting alpha'd off the effing board real fast if you focus target priority on nix, stolen, and hamelin. While I agree with the posters in that both sonnia and perdita both have decent matchup's against hamelin, the main reason is mainly due to each master/crew having access to shrug off/dispel insignificant off which is something that no other faction/master/crew has currently in the game. and even the things that do get past immune to influence, she still has pretty high wp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistercactus Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Should we make a checklist for facing unknown outcast crews? So far we have: Family or witchlings for shrug off/dispel magic (hamelin) Austringers (to ruin Levi's day) Anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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