UK Malifaux Rankings

[magicpockets]

Let's say you're second on rankings and in reach of first place, you've got three high ranking scores in the bag and are at another tourny - are you going to play a "fun, laid back list" as your "three scores" are in, or are you going to go for the win to improve your ranking?

Let's say you then don't get the score you need to snag the next highest placement, what are you going to do at the next tournament - fun or win? The next? The one after that? And after that?

Answer those questions honestly for yourself, and you'll understand where my concerns are based.

I'd still welcome the "for rankings" peoples thoughts on this.

I don't think this point can be stressed enough....OPT IN OR OPT OUT!

It's not as clear cut as that, opting out doesn't stop you being steamrolled by a powerlist in the first few rounds. Opting out affects scoring, not game play.

I have to disagree with this point.

It assumes that the opted out players or those players who play for fun are bad players. A player could easily win the first couple of rounds without being ultra competitive and only really come up with that cinematic moment of will I or won't I in the final round.

I'd agree with this, having won the most recent two tournaments (Northampton and Birmingham) and ranked consistently high in others I'd say I can really screw with your points/ranking if you get me in the last couple of rounds - that seems unfair, especially if (for example) someone misses out on first place in the rankings because I beat them one round from the end but they "would" have beaten the player who I get in the last round.

[Neverata]

Yeah but analysing all angles to the point of pulling things apart doesnt make for good games either. Stressing about what might or might not happen isnt going to change the fact that we dont know what will happen until it happens.

It'll be interesting. People like me who just play with one master probably won't care what happens, because i don't build a list to play a game. I just go for what i can be bothered to take.

We're all different and we all build our lists differently, still in the suck it and see camp

[Neverata]

If none of you lot decide to be in the rankings it means i might actually be high in the table

[magicpockets]

If none of you lot decide to be in the rankings it means i might actually be high in the table

Ahhhh, busted

[Neverata]

In that case i think the rankings are a really crap idea and none of you except me should enter rankings....and maybe Drake so i can make him cry when i win all the time...

[Drake]

Me, cry? (in public) never! Although I may be broken inside...

I do hope this doesnt make the community divisive, I think we have a great community, and support any idea that gives more people more choices and variety..

[Neverata]

I do think it would be daft it splits or if we allow ourselves to be split. On the inside we all want to win and have fun.

Have you got anything more to add James? Are you going to bring up the subject during the Cardiff tournament?

[ukrocky]

that seems unfair, especially if (for example) someone misses out on first place in the rankings because I beat them one round from the end but they "would" have beaten the player who I get in the last round.

I don't really see your point here for 2 reasons;

1 - If players come up against you anyway they'll probably lose in your example and not win/place higher in the tournament.

2 - If they're caring so much about missing out on number 1 spot because of a bad last round match up then;

a) It's like Brazil facing Spain in the World Cup Last 16, bad match ups happen, get over it.

If they keep caring, they're taking the rankings too seriously and will be one of a minority.

[mythicFOX]

Ok, so after much agonizing here's where I am.

I understand that people have legitimate concerns about progressing a rankings solution. I don't believe they pose the same level of threat to us as others do, but I do understand those concerns.

Ultimately there is a risk here, Rankings could ruin Malifaux Tournaments in the UK. They could also attract a lot of new players and enrich Tournaments in the UK.

So is that risk worth taking? I think it is, and I feel I'm in good company;

• Neverata - who's run the two biggest events in the UK
  
• The majority of UK henchmen
  
• Zee, Wyrd's head of community
  

These are the people who are in the driving seat of the tournament scene, and they're pro-rankings.

On this basis I am going to push ahead with implementing UK rankings. I hope it proves to be the right decision. I know this is not the decision a number of you want to hear, but I do hope you can accept it.

Whatever happens I know we will all go on to support Malifaux and its UK community in our own way.

Warm regards.

- James

[Stern]

If none of you lot decide to be in the rankings it means i might actually be high in the table

could you really imagine like 3-4 people using it that would be hilarious!

[Clousseau]

As James says, its not jst him pushing something through. There has been a lot of discussion within the UK Henchmen, and there's been some great discussion here.

So let's press on and see how it goes.

[Stern]

As James says, its not jst him pushing something through. There has been a lot of discussion within the UK Henchmen, and there's been some great discussion here.

So let's press on and see how it goes.

couldn't have said it better myself... I look forwards to it :-D

[Fenrir]

I do hope this doesnt make the community divisive,

I suspect it already has started to. There are now people who will not go to certain events due to not wanting to be part of the rankings system, and people who will not go to an event if it isn't ranked.

As somebody said above - its going to be a two tier system.

[Chucklemonkey]

Have to agree with Fenrir. While I have no objection per se to a ranking system it has already seemed to split opinion somewhat.

I am also slightly concerned about the justification of moving it forward of most Henchmen agree with it when it was stated in the opening post that Henchmen had already been discussing the matter for some time. As such their views were already known prior to the opening of this thread.

Unless I'm missing something?

[magicpockets]

As James says, its not just him pushing something through. There has been a lot of discussion within the UK Henchmen, and there's been some great discussion here.

So let's press on and see how it goes.

See, I don't like this approach. It's like the House of Lords deciding something amongst themselves and then forcing it on the masses irrespective of any public outcry. The decision to implement this was taken before this thread was started, and despite a lot of people expressing concerns they've not genuinely been acknowledged, considered or answered.

All this has essentially been is "telling" us we're getting a ranking system and we can opt-out if we don't like it, I don't believe there has been any genuine attempt to involve lowly "non-henchmen" in the decision at all.

James and Dave, you know I think highly of you both but I disagree wholeheartedly with the "we know what's best for the community so will push it through" approach that's been taken here. And I'm guessing I won't be the only one.

This has already caused a divide and p***ed some people off, so you're starting by facing an uphill battle to make this add value to the community. I hope for all our sakes you can.

Edited June 22, 2011 by magicpockets

[Drake]

Id suggest people still go and play if they are not in it for the Rankings.

If you decide there is a marked change in peoples attitudes and approach, fair enough, but atleast give it a go before ruling out going to an event which happens to have Ranking going on.

If as a community we agree Ranking hasnt worked, once we have tried it, we can always revert to non rankings again I guess. Although it should be given a fair chance to work and flourish....

@Magic & Fenrir, I appreciate the sentiment about views against, but to be fair their have been views from both sides, including non henchman supporting this. I think we should have faith and just try this out, and as I mentioned above, give it the benefit of the doubt for now at least. Try and if it doesnt work, its your choice not to attend future Ranked events, until such time as the community as a whole decides (if it decides ofcourse) to stop ranked events

[magicpockets]

@Magic & Fenrir, I appreciate the sentiment about views against, but to be fair their have been views from both sides, including non henchman supporting this.

Such a paper-thin argument Ash for a number of reasons.

Firstly, the most vocal "non-henchman" support from this has come from one circle of friends which include the person proposing the program.

Secondly, just because there are people who support the proposal it does't mean that concerns that oppose it aren't valid or shouldn't be answered - and they certainly shouldn't just be side-lined and ignored.

If you're going to have a debate about something, have a debate about it but you have to listen to and answer both sides. Not say, "we know there's some people who oppose this, but we're not going to answer their concerns, we're going to do it anyway because we think it's best"

Try and if it doesnt work, its your choice not to attend future Ranked events

Exactly, that's a perfect example of the attitude we're talking about. "If you don't like the fact we're doing this, f*ck you and stay at home". I need say no more...

Edited June 22, 2011 by magicpockets

[AdrianMills]

The community will only diverse if we let it. As a relative newcomer being playing for about 6-7 months now I feel that the community is strong enough not to let it.

Will rankings effect how I play I don't think so I will always try to win but I will still have the fun even when loosing.

At last tournament got trounced 8-0, 7-2 and managed to redeem myself in the last game. I still had fun in the 2 games I lost because of the people I was playing against yes there was some frustrating moments but I laughed and learned from them and carry on.

Edited June 22, 2011 by AdrianMills

[Talos]

If you look at this in respect of the potential downside to having a ranking system and the potential downside to not having a ranking system I think you'd be hard pressed to build a case for one.

I agree with this 100% I just dont see the point in the risk. I already feel there is a divide in the forum because of this thread. Every game I have seen that has individual rankings had been worse because of it. I have never seen a game improve because of rankings.

If we go ahead with rankings I really think we need to have another look at them in a years time. So once we have had a full year with rankings we sit down and all discuss the impact we feel they have had. There may be none of the doom we are talking about and everything is fine or it may have become a game of pandora vs Hamlin. I suppose the only way to find out now is going ahead with it. But it seems to already have brought alot of tension to the community so its really going to have to amazing to make it seem like a good thing for the community.

I know if the rankings came into play before my next tournament this summer I will be bring a much stronger list than the ones I have been using before. Which is odd I know as you already play for prizes and first place without rankings. But there is something about having actually ranking people can look up that makes you want to win alot more.

I also get the feeling this debate has just became " I know you guys have concerns but I like the idea so we are doing it". This thread seemed to be "we have decided" not "hey guys do you think this is a good idea".

So I am just going to sit back now and see how the rankings effect the community for better or worse.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Talos

[mythicFOX]

There's is a fine line between having a debate and having an argument. I'm trying to stay on the debate side of that line, sorry if this is making me come across as high handed.

I put together a massive post the night before last which I hope answered a number of the concerns I believe people have. If you have concerns that I haven't spoken about and considered then I'm happy to do so.

Just as many people have come to this thread who support rankings as don't. This thread is a debate between the most vocal elements of both view points, and none of us can claim to speak for the whole community. This leads me on to the subject of who has the right to decide one way or another on this. I suppose ultimately only Wyrd do, and Wyrd (via Zee) have come to this thread and said they're pro-rankings. If they change their minds and tell me to stop I'll slam the breaks on.

I understand if people feel they've been left out of the decision, that is regrettable, I haven't handled this as well as I would have liked, and for that I am sorry.

I feel there is a lot gain from rankings, from an improved standard of play to drawing more and more players into the game by increasing its profile. I also don't feel that doing nothing is inherently risk free, there are the risks of stagnation and dwindling player numbers if this happens.

If the worst should happen and rankings ruin Malifaux I'll be the first to stand there and help shut them down.

- James.

[hewasneverborn]

I know it probably is of no concern to you, but I'd like to register my dissapointment that you are disregarding the opinions of members of the playerbase you are supposed to represent. Regardless of what you say, you have now created a two-tier system in what is still a small community.

I for one will not be attending any ranked events. Perhaps I will be alone in this, but I somehow doubt it. For those who share my opinions, the best I can offer is that my club will run some non-ranked events down south.

[Fenrir]

If the worst should happen and rankings ruin Malifaux I'll be the first to stand there and help shut them down.

Fair enough. I don't think rankings will ruin Malifaux, only that the tournament scene will stagnate and push out the more casual players ala WFB tournaments.

Labouring a point now though, so think I've said enough. I'll not be at any ranked events. Unranked ones? Yep.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Fenrir

[magicpockets]

This is going to be my last post on this issue and I want to stress before I go on that this is no reflection on my view of James, Jo or Dave as individuals (that's not an exhaustive list, it's just they're the ones I've called out the most over this - and probably the three I'd least want to fall out with). I know everything in this thread has been undertaken with the best intentions.

Since I got involved with Malifaux I've been a very vocal and passionate supporter of what I think is a cool little game. Sure, the fact the rules intricacies fit my Rain Man tendencies is a bonus and makes me good at the game (I have a mix of Aspergers and OCD which means I'm good at working out interactions between rules, but equally no matter how hard I try I suck at social relationships - which is why so many people think I'm aloof. Now you know huh ), but even so I love the fluff, the models, the people - all of it.

However I really feel there's now a divide in the game which I'm on the wrong side of. I've put my neck on the line arguing with friends over how I think this has been handled because (despite the fact most people probably expected me to be all over ranking as I have a good shout at doing very well in them) it's too easy for the top percentile/most powerful in anything to inadvertently use their position to do things which suit them but which aren't so good for the little guy. I see rankings falling into this camp and feel really strongly that someone needs to try and stand up for those who it doesn't work for.

And also, if I'm being honest, I really don't like that something I spend so much money and time on can have a change forced onto the community by the "elite" and that my opinion doesn't matter as I don't have a henchman badge (even though there are people with them who do a LOT less for the community than me). If it didn't affect me then I wouldn't be as upset, but this has a fundamental effect on how I approach Malifaux and for that not to matter is wrong.

So, having said all that, the problem I've got is having argued so hard I now don't feel comfortable going to events which are ranked (which will be all of the main ones) - firstly because of awkwardness with the people I've argued so vocally against and secondly because of the bad feeling when I beat ranked players and mess with the scores. And I know the response will be that it won't be a problem, but it's a problem for me and that's what ultimately matters. I guess this is the "divide" that's been talked about.

So, between this and an email I got this morning re the team tournament I was looking at organising (which I won't go into as it's not worth it), I think I've decided to call it a day with Malifaux. Something just isn't sitting right with me anymore - it's hard for me to do something "social" anyway, and the past few days have just pushed it a little to far for me. So I'll still play a few games here and there, but until this is resolved I'm not going to be painting dozens of models or travelling to tournies etc.

I'm at a place with work which could do with me having less distractions anyway, so every cloud and all that - but please take note of this and tread very carefully with how you manage this ranking system. And sorry for the very depressing nature of this post, I just wanted chance to share honestly how I feel rather than just drifting off into the proverbial ether.

On a brighter note, if anyone wants to buy a LOT of my spare Malifaux stuff cheap I'll be posting in the trading forum soon

Take it easy everyone

Edited August 8, 2011 by magicpockets

[Drake]

Magic,

Hope you reconsider quitting malifaux. Ive made a few good friends so far thanks to this game, and like to think you are one of them, so seeing you leave the game wouldnt be good.

I dont think anyone would have any hard feelings about you having an opinion.

Well You've always got friends at the club to come and play with.

[AdrianMills]

Sorry to hear you are considering leaving us Magic. Even though we haven’t managed to meet up you have been considerably helpful to me on the forums and I believe made me a better player.