tadaka Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 If our game today showed anything, it really reinforced how much the Rat Catchers are the lynch pin to the whole crew, and I think that starting two is an absolute must. I found this as well as your list very odd. I have had much better luck not starting with only one or some times 0 catchers and makeing them in game. If for no other reason then you can move all the rats forward and then make them first turn for some extra movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 We'll get a real battle report up after thursday. Sandwich was obviously off his game, and the match was decided after one turn basically. With that said, Gunpowder Saint had a pure genius strategy for nailing Treasure Hunt and his schemes, so it would have been a tough battle regardless, though Sonnia did absolutely nothing noteworthy during the game, he may as well have been playing Lucius. If our game today showed anything, it really reinforced how much the Rat Catchers are the lynch pin to the whole crew, and I think that starting two is an absolute must. Ham 2 Ratchers Nix The Stolen 4 Rats. 7 SS cache Hide The Stolen and Nix, brick up the rest of the crew and go to town. I may even drop Nix is certain Matchups/Strategies. I think one The Stolen is definitely enough to keep Hamelin on the board for the entire game, now with the errata. I don't know if I agree with all of that, actually. It was honestly because I just wasn't in the right groove. I made so many mistakes its just pitiful. I moved far too quickly, was far too spread out, focused on the wrong models, I abandoned Nix in the middle of a crowd of unactivated models, et cetera. I think had I been playing intelligently it would've been the usual but I wasn't. :[ With the new change to Indiscriminate Void however, I agree, one Stolen is perfectly fine, or at least it seemed so. Against Sonnia Criid obviously they're worthless, she'll just counterspell any (1)Bleeding Diseases thrown her way, but against other crews, I think The Stolen are still very, very powerful. My local henchman plays hamlin and im a main pandora player super competetive (will play other lists in fun games but will go hard core othertimes)...sandwich ive used a lot of ur tactics to prepare against facing certain armies respectem a lot just wanted to throw that out thier.....ill do some testing with pandora and zoraida vs hamlin and post my results.. with any master you want to play your game and not allow your opponent to.play his..(somtimes easier said than done)..know your str,s..your schemes ur strategies..be a better more knowledgable player than your opponents....yes hamlin is top tier but not oped...(had to hear that a lot as a pandora player) Sorta went off on tangent thier but just sayibg whatever comes to mind from my phone lol.. Will definitly answer questions involving pandora zoraida collodi marcus or soniaa reguarding hamlin if anyone has them. I agree completely. I failed to play correctly and lost. No excuses. :[ I plan to come back all better on Thursday and we'll have a real batrep going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 I hear what you are saying, but I actually think that despite your play mistakes and GP Saints play, you still would have been able to win if you had another Rat Catcher to fall back on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 I hear what you are saying, but I actually think that despite your play mistakes and GP Saints play, you still would have been able to win if you had another Rat Catcher to fall back on. It's possible. I'm not sure though, I wouldn't have the rats to bring down his Executioner, so I'd need to rely on Hamelin to do it, which would reduce the spread of Insignificant. Though I'm sure it could've worked with two Rat Catchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProdigalPunk Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Things with Terrifying will do bad things to the rats. Seamus with a gunslinger would give Hamelin a pretty hard time. Bete Niore would also cause a lot of problems against a Hamelin crew in that she could pretty much pop up anywhere and wreck havoc on whichever target you though was most important to take down. The rezzers as a whole I think have a lot going for them when it comes to facing Hamelin. The ability to cycle through troops that might have been made insignificant really helps I think, and the fact that Hamelin's crew can get bogged down lets you grind all the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozzy Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Hey happens to the best of us sandwich ... On side side notes never born seem to have a lot of answers as well.... Lilith swapping places.. black blood etc.. pandora just causes hamlin fits with lots of options i plan to do a writeup of her seperatly. Zoraida roughest of them all but I runner with collodi and he can cancle the insignificant to his dolls..as well as if needed being able to out run the hamlin player along with zoraida being so quick.. Dreamer I.don't play much but I imagine the immune to influence teddy the terrifying and a well placed alp bomb could cause trouble for hamlin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) Ended up switching my Colette game last night to a match against a local Henchmen playing a Luscious crew. Lists, summary and key points below - Strategy = Shared destroy the evidence Dave's Crew (Bodyguard / Kill Protege) ======== Luscious Drill Sergeant Guardsman Guardsman Capitain Ryle Peacekeeper 4ss My List (Thwart / the outcast one where you need to finish with more ss) ===== Hamelin Obedient Wretch Stolen Rat Catcher Nix 5x Rats 8 ss Main Points ======= Peacekeeper ran up the board to stand over the neutral evidence marker. Hamelin charged it, soulstoned the total and cheated in severe damage for 7wds (after armour), then did (0) action so he ignored modifiers and promptly killed it in one activation. Rats, nix and ratcatcher moved up the opposite flank to head off Ryle. He really struggled as the rats were on his side of the wall and nix/ratcatcher were on the other side. This meant the voracious rats/herd dog etc all worked but nix and RC were out of LoS - that seemed a little unfair as by turn three the rats had promptly chewed up and spat out Ryle. Turn 2 and 3 Hamelin has sufficiently used pipes to make the guardsmen etc insignificant (not Luscious) so they couldn't interact with the evidence markers. There was no way he could have stopped this so he never really stood a chance with regards to the strategy. By the end of turn 4 I'd lost a single summoned stolen (who I'd summoned into combat with Luscious to tie him up and trigger no humanity), Dave was down to Luscious, an insignificant guildguard and his heavily wounded sergeant, and I'd closed the attack on both flanks into the centre of the board to finish the job. It was at that point we called it at 6:2 to me. Realised just how fast the rats and Nix can be with herd dog, kill all rats and writhing mass combined (esp by using writhing mass then pushing nix 8" towards the rats it affected). We managed approx 20" in a single turn. At one point I had 14 cards in my hand - and usually way more than 6. === The main takeaway points form the game were - 1) It's not fun for your opponent when you're activating/pushing rats multiple times in the game. It takes too long. 2) Keeping track of which rats have activated is a pain in the ass for both you and your opponent. 3) I'm struggling to make nix worth 7ss. For me herd dog is his most useful ability, but I'd rather take an extra Rat Catcher and Rat for the money. What am I missing? 3) Strategies where you have to interact are almost impossible against Hamelin as even if insignificant ends at the end of the game before VPs - it's too late to do anything about it. 4) RatCatchers are the lynchpin in the swarm - if I was playing against Hamelin that's where I'd start. 5) Being able to make Immune to influence models insignificant via pipes is nice (as it's a simple duel vs the combat total and not an opposed duel) Edited this after conversation with Tadaka which follows this post 6) The soulstone scheme (I'll update with the name when I check later) seems easy for Hamelin as you can just drain souls twice on rats at the end to get 6ss back. 7) I'm still not convinced Hamelin is outright "overpowered", but "unbalanced" definitely seems to fit. Against some schemes/masters he's a complete monster - against others he's pretty screwed. 8) The new stolen/summon mechanic being used like daydreams is awesome fun, yes for grabbing objectives but DEFINITELY for defending objectives - keep a stolen or two at the back and if need be you can have Hamelin at the back of the table to defend at the end of the turn. 9) Now Hamelin can ignore the 3" stolen rule it makes summoning stolen to stay alive less of an issue and makes the +1 fast a lot more brutal. 10) The game takes a long time with a Hamelin crew. Not sure how realistic the timeframes in gaining ground are in this respect (85 mins?) Ideas for Luscious =========== 1) Jackdaw - he's my number 1 favourite counter to Hamelin at the minute and will go on every list I can get him onto Having said that, without checking the rules I've got doubt about Henchmen/Luscious hiring mercs??? 2) Certainly take Austringers and use the drill sergeant to give them +ive attack flips and Luscious for extra attacks/+2cb. Depending on activation order it could be a potential way to take out stolen, ratcatchers and nix - esp with chaining via Deliver Orders. 3) Luscious terrifying is good, but eventually succumbs to weight of numbers - esp if a RC is in range. Maybe partner him with an executioner (can Luscious do this?) 4) Use Guild Guard Captains to cast Menace on Rat Catchers. If they can't move the whole swarm stays put or risks being wiped out. 5) slingshotting papaloco out of the deployment area into Hamelin could work, but won't work against ratcatchers (as he won't die of one explosion so will get healed by the rats dying) 6) erm... * I'll tidy up / update more later but have work to do for clients first Edited April 5, 2011 by magicpockets More added Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 5) Being able to make Immune to influence models insignificant via pipes is nice (as they're the attacker in the resulting WP duel, not the defender)? Huh not sure how this works care to enlighten me how a trigger from the attacker makes the other guy an attacker? I only have the book I dont think the card changed but on the pipes trigger it even calls the model a defender. Also what about jackdaw is so powerfull vs hamelin? (Not that he is not good just dont see what makes him so anti hamelin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 5) Being able to make Immune to influence models insignificant via pipes is nice (as they're the attacker in the resulting WP duel, not the defender)? Huh not sure how this works care to enlighten me how a trigger from the attacker makes the other guy an attacker? I only have the book I dont think the card changed but on the pipes trigger it even calls the model a defender. I've not got the card but it says (ish) "when model is wounded by pipes it must make a WP->this model combat total or receive insignificant". So the structure of the duel is the WP is attacking the combat total (as with terrifying) and immune to influence only works when you're the defender. Also what about jackdaw is so powerfull vs hamelin? (Not that he is not good just dont see what makes him so anti hamelin) He's awesome against any master for shutting them down (soulstones and cheating), Hamelin doesn't have any magic weapons so struggles to damage him, rats can't touch him as they can't focus strike, he's terrifying->13 which most stuff will fail if it can't cheat, iirc he can lure rat catchers out from their swarms (hangmans knot?), and he can kill stuff dead unless it discards cards which - if done right - can be tough for a Hamelin crew which doesn't gerenate cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozzy Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) Where to begin with jack daw...he's extremely tough to kill can force you to discard cards or be killed..as well as terrifying 13..all sorts of things hamlin doesn't like lol especially paired with pandora.. (edit)Lol you beat me to it and said it better Edited April 5, 2011 by Bozzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 can force you to discard cards or be killed Just to clarify, Hamelin ignores this but the rest of his crew is open to this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) I've not got the card but it says (ish) "when model is wounded by pipes it must make a WP->this model combat total or receive insignificant". So the structure of the duel is the WP is attacking the combat total (as with terrifying) and immune to influence only works when you're the defender. Perhaps I misunderstood you "I've not got the card but it says (ish) "when model is wounded by pipes it must make a WP->this model combat total or receive insignificant". So the structure of the duel is the WP is attacking the combat total (as with terrifying) and immune to influence only works when you're the defender" I think you just worded that poorly. I imagine what you mean is the trigger is not an attack(There is no attacker or defender in the duel) and thus bypasses the ITF. The way you have worded it makes it sound like the person targeted is the attacker or some thing. Edited April 5, 2011 by tadaka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) You edited your post so makes sense to edit this too I think you;re right that my use of "attacker" is the wrong terminology as it's not an opposed duel but a simple duel vs the combat total (as with terrifying). This thread explains it - http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=12001&highlight=immune+influence+terrifying Edited April 5, 2011 by magicpockets added link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Looks like we are on the same page the attack wording just put me off. I understand what your getting at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cain Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 2) Keeping track of which rats have activated is a pain in the ass for both you and your opponent. Thats what the flock rule is for. Rats activate at once, even when you "reactivate" them by slaughter. Should be not so easy to have rats inside 6" of a RC, at least 2 inside 2" to get the armor, and still have enough in contact with the enemy to munch it without have rats in 4 " of other rats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Thats what the flock rule is for. Rats activate at once, even when you "reactivate" them by slaughter. Should be not so easy to have rats inside 6" of a RC, at least 2 inside 2" to get the armor, and still have enough in contact with the enemy to munch it without have rats in 4 " of other rats. Yeah, I get that but when you bring two swarms together from different flanks, or split your swarm in different directions, or attack different models... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Friend added little skulls to the bases. He just pushes the skulls in when that one has activated works well enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Friend added little skulls to the bases. He just pushes the skulls in when that one has activated works well enough. Similar idea, I've just ordered some 2mm magnets and going to be greenstuffing little cheese wedges that I'll remove when its activated. Think it'll be easier to do it visually like you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 just glass beads placed next to the model works most of the time. You probably need to use 2 colours to separate ones that have 1AP due to being summoned and ones that have their full AP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Hell. Might be a good idea to make cheese wedges and skulls. Skull for when its activated and a wedge for when its wounded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 just glass beads placed next to the model works most of the time. You probably need to use 2 colours to separate ones that have 1AP due to being summoned and ones that have their full AP. Rat they all come with slow. New ones coming in don't change them at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Rat they all come with slow. New ones coming in don't change them at all. good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted April 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Hell. Might be a good idea to make cheese wedges and skulls. Skull for when its activated and a wedge for when its wounded Quality shout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Bigglesworth Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 (edited) Things with Terrifying will do bad things to the rats. Seamus with a gunslinger would give Hamelin a pretty hard time. Bete Niore would also cause a lot of problems against a Hamelin crew in that she could pretty much pop up anywhere and wreck havoc on whichever target you though was most important to take down. The rezzers as a whole I think have a lot going for them when it comes to facing Hamelin. The ability to cycle through troops that might have been made insignificant really helps I think, and the fact that Hamelin's crew can get bogged down lets you grind all the better. terrifying will help route rats and rat catchers but if you are not impacting the catches that means they can just sac rats and move them out of way. Flesh construct like the executioner can create I think about a 6 inch bubble that the rats will have hard time moving through. Ressers I think might have a harder time than you are leading on because when they lose a minions it usually means they lost it permanently. Most of the army prevents the placement of a corpse counter. This would affect Nico and Seamus mostly. Kairi might be the best resser choice because can summon more freely, fast models and a lot of movement shennigans. Edited April 5, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProdigalPunk Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 What is preventing a placement of a corpse counter? I am not seeing anything on the cards what I could have missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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