Suggestions on Pandora list

[magicpockets]

Hi. I've been testing a few Pandora lists ahead of a Feb tournament and was hoping for some feedback if possible with where I'm up to?

As a background, I love Alps but think they're to squishy for any thing 35ss or under (you need loads of them) so have gone more towards Stitched Togethers (which are freekin awesome). The 30ss list would be -

Pandora

Doppleganger 8ss

Primordial Magic 2ss

Sorrow 3ss

Insidious Madness 4ss

2x Stitched Together 10ss

3ss for cache (to give 8ss)

Main strategies would be -

Using the sorrow and doppleganger to copy emotional trauma (sorrow by copying unhealthy relationship via doppleganger then using mimic) causing 3wds on failed moral tests

Using the madness to force negative flips on opposing masters/SS users when Pandora takes them on - plus it acts as an emergency initiative ref lip if the doppleganger and SS let's me down

Using Stitched to reduce ranged damage on the sorrow/doppleganger and to force WP tests with gamble your life (6wds minimum in range of all three emotional traumas)

Primordial for the extra card and cast (3wds), with cards from Gambler (doing 3wds on win) when creeping fog isn't needed.

It seems pretty brutal, but anyone see any issues or hav any ideas?

[128th_king]

stitched are great, although rather situational. but when it goes it's amazing

also will your tournament allow proxies? as the insidious madness aren't out yet

Primordial Magic is an amazing totem, by far my favorite out of it and the poltergeist

sorrows are still good, better than pre-link cuddle sorrows. just remember to be cautious when playing against someone like criid who can target the linked sorrow then put the blast onto Pandora

Remember that your opponent may have something like hanged, make these your first priority, bring down anything similar to that first

[karn987]

Hi. I've been testing a few Pandora lists ahead of a Feb tournament and was hoping for some feedback if possible with where I'm up to?

As a background, I love Alps but think they're to squishy for any thing 35ss or under (you need loads of them) so have gone more towards Stitched Togethers (which are freekin awesome). The 30ss list would be -

Pandora

Doppleganger 8ss

Primordial Magic 2ss

Sorrow 3ss

Insidious Madness 4ss

2x Stitched Together 10ss

3ss for cache (to give 8ss)

Main strategies would be -

Using the sorrow and doppleganger to copy emotional trauma (sorrow by copying unhealthy relationship via doppleganger then using mimic) causing 3wds on failed moral tests

Using the madness to force negative flips on opposing masters/SS users when Pandora takes them on - plus it acts as an emergency initiative ref lip if the doppleganger and SS let's me down

Using Stitched to reduce ranged damage on the sorrow/doppleganger and to force WP tests with gamble your life (6wds minimum in range of all three emotional traumas)

Primordial for the extra card and cast (3wds), with cards from Gambler (doing 3wds on win) when creeping fog isn't needed.

It seems pretty brutal, but anyone see any issues or hav any ideas?

Stitched Together are Ok with Pandora, but a little slow and short ranged, I find the points are better spent on Candy or Kade. Those two are much faster and bring diversity to your list. But ST brings it's huge fog AE effect which can be very useful for keeping ranged based lists pinned down till you get close. But Pandora is so fast it generally doesn't matter I find.

Sorrows, I can't stress it enough how good they are with Pandora and now that you can link more then 1 to a single model, you may as well bring at least 2.

Doppelganger is very nice if your focusing on Wp duels to cause damage. But if this is the case, you may want to consider Lilitu and Lelu. Pandora always wants at least 1 model that is competent in melee. Usually this is either Lelu, Teddy, Coppelius, or the Rider. The reason for this is, it just takes one high Wp model to throw a wrench into your plans. Plus all Wp makes you predictable and thus easy to plan against. You really do want one of these types of models ;D

Madness is great for Pandora, it can do a ton of useful things especially because it can give Negative Flips on Wp duels with no resist!

Some people like 8 SS with Pandora, but I would rather drop down to 6ish. I usually will end a game with left over SS for Pandora even at 6ss.

Otherwise I will defer to my Tactica *points to Signature* if you haven't read it, I recommend downloading it and reading it the first chance you get.

[Thunder_God]

Karn, why not listing the Mature Nephilim amongst those heavy hitters list.

[magicpockets]

I think people are missing the idea above - the reason its all WP based is between Pandora, the sorrow and Doppleganger I'll have 3x emotional traumas in play at once. The idea is then to use Pandora (incite/pacify and spells) to inflict wounds due to failed WP tests, and the same with the stitched (in fact, this lists puts stitched damage for Gamble Your Life up to 6/8/10). I've got a 24" diameter circle of sheer WP brutality.

With no insidious madness (until released) I'd prob run another stitched and lose a SS from Pandy's pool.

On a side, has anyone played JackDaw with Pandora? I like the idea of putting him in combat/behind the enemy master and then using self loathing with Pandora from outside of the 6" aura (the one with no cheating and ss use) to do some real damage. But for 10ss I can run 2xmadness and still have 2ss change.

[karn987]

Karn, why not listing the Mature Nephilim amongst those heavy hitters list.

Because I always forget to heh.

Those are my preferred ones any way. The Mature is great, but I just mesh better with those other choices and I feel they work better with Pandora. The Mature's speed and damage is great, but he is not Teddy nor as tough as him by far. So except for Diving Charge, I prefer the others.

[karn987]

I think people are missing the idea above - the reason its all WP based is between Pandora, the sorrow and Doppleganger I'll have 3x emotional traumas in play at once. The idea is then to use Pandora (incite/pacify and spells) to inflict wounds due to failed WP tests, and the same with the stitched (in fact, this lists puts stitched damage for Gamble Your Life up to 6/8/10). I've got a 24" diameter circle of sheer WP brutality.

With no insidious madness (until released) I'd prob run another stitched and lose a SS from Pandy's pool.

On a side, has anyone played JackDaw with Pandora? I like the idea of putting him in combat/behind the enemy master and then using self loathing with Pandora from outside of the 6" aura (the one with no cheating and ss use) to do some real damage. But for 10ss I can run 2xmadness and still have 2ss change.

Ahh I see but my statements still stand. I'd drop the ST's and take a melee guy to. So Lilitu and Lelu make a great combo for this, as does Coppelius.

Who ever you are using the triple Emotional Trauma trick against, I hope you either don't like them or are ready to be hated heh. Its a cheesy trick, effective but cheesy. Pretty sure that's why you don't see it come up much, I know that's why I don't mention it.

Jackdaw aint bad, but Im just not a fan of his. My opponents know to well how to abuse his weaknesses and turn him into a hindrance. Sure his Aura is great, but your pretty much fine without it. I prefer other models simply, but in a big game like 40+ SS, I'd probably take him.

[magicpockets]

Who ever you are using the triple Emotional Trauma trick against, I hope you either don't like them or are ready to be hated heh. Its a cheesy trick, effective but cheesy. Pretty sure that's why you don't see it come up much, I know that's why I don't mention it.

It's a pure tourny list, I'd never use it in open play

Jackdaw aint bad, but Im just not a fan of his. My opponents know to well how to abuse his weaknesses and turn him into a hindrance.

Could you explain a little? I've never used him so finding it a little tough to justify the 10ss over a couple of insidious madness. If he's problematic, I may skip him altogether

[Bozzy]

thiers much better options.. im currently running pandora in a league and would never takeer without lelu and lillitu same with dopleganger...

[Thunder_God]

How exactly do you get the Sorrow to have Emotional Trauma?

[Wodschow]

Doppelganger copies Unhealthy Relationship and then the Sorrows can use the Doppelganger's (0) actions.

There's quite alot of potential in those interactions between the different Woes.

[Ratty]

Link to the Doppleganger, use the Doppleganger to copy Emotional Trauma. Use the Sorrows ability to copy a (0) action to copy Mimic from the Doppelganger, use Mimic to copy Emotional Trauma.

[Thunder_God]

Right, I keep forgetting Talents encompasses "Abilities" as well (anything but spells). And copying Unhealthy Relationship, heh..

Edited January 23, 2011 by Thunder_God

[Wodschow]

Link to the Doppleganger, use the Doppleganger to copy Emotional Trauma. Use the Sorrows ability to copy a (0) action to copy Mimic from the Doppelganger, use Mimic to copy Emotional Trauma.

I think linking to the Doppel is a bad idea.. That'll kill the Doppel :/

And the Sorrows don't have any ability to copy (0) actions.. They can cast (1) spells, but that's all..

[Ratty]

I think linking to the Doppel is a bad idea.. That'll kill the Doppel :/

And the Sorrows don't have any ability to copy (0) actions.. They can cast (1) spells, but that's all..

I really really shouldn't have tried to do that from memory without checking the cards, and never having run that trick in a game.

[Wodschow]

Muhahaha

My own cunning plan with the Unhealthy Relationship shenanigans is linking a Lelu to Pandora.. That'll move him across the table and he can be fairly durable with his healing abilities so works better as a damage drain than a Sorrow would in itself.

Still have to see how it works out in reality though.

As for critique on the original list: The main problem I see with the Unhealthy shenanigans you're using is that you're sort of forced to activate most of your models in a certain order for the list to work out. To maximize damage you have to start with Doppel, then Sorrow, Insidious Madness if that debuff is required and then finally you can start thinking about hurting the enemy.

And it'll go like this every turn.

If your opponent doesn't see that coming then I suppose it's their own fault.

[Ratty]

A small question. If you Link to a model with a copied ability, does the link drop when you lose the ability, or does it last as the effect is now in play.. I think it's the latter but I wanted to check.

[Wodschow]

I assumed the latter aswell (otherwise my shenanigans obviously wouldn't work..), reason being you're just affected by the 'link' effect, having the (0)Link action available to you just means you're able to form a new link. But yeah, just working under my own assumptions here.

[magicpockets]

^^ You dont need to be linked to use a (0) action via unhealthy relationship, just in base to base contact

EDIT : ahh, realised what you mean. Just ignore me

Edited January 23, 2011 by magicpockets

[magicpockets]

Doppelganger copies Unhealthy Relationship and then the Sorrows can use the Doppelganger's (0) actions.

This is the right way

[magicpockets]

As for critique on the original list: The main problem I see with the Unhealthy shenanigans you're using is that you're sort of forced to activate most of your models in a certain order for the list to work out.

Yes and no. Obviously the main idea is as you say, but there's a lot of variety in there. For example, use the DG to mimic Use Soulstones and Gamble your life - fairly easy to get a severe damage for 8wds in there (including the 1wd from pandora)

[128th_king]

also, stitched work amazingly in a brawl with dreamer and Pandora, gives them extreme pop up: 0 gamble, Gamble your Life, Gamble your life, back down again, and remember that if you are going to gamble, always have Project Emotions: Pity down to almost ensure that you win the duel, provided you don't flip black

[MrNybbles]

Idea!

Stitched Together + Doppelganger + Performer & Mannequin

1) Attempt to have the Performer cast Seduction on the target to give the defense and resiste flips a :-fate. This is not required, but makes killing the target so much easier as well as inflicts a Wp duel.

2) Doppelganger Copies the Mannequin's 8 Wp. (Yes, this is one of the stats that it can copy).

3) Doppelganger Copies Stitched Togeather's (1) Gamble with your Life. This is the Doppelganger's last zero-action.

4) Doppelganger targets an enemy model twice with Gamble with your Life. Cheat the attack and damage flips as needed, inflicting 3/4/7 damage each time. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Also, in a Pandora crew you can have the Doppelganger in base contact with Pandora and gain access to (0) Pacify & +1 Wp via Pandora's Unhealthy Relationship. If the Mannequin's 8 Wp is copied then the Doppelganger can then use Pacify with an effective Wp of 9. This should work really well with lots of Sorrows within 3" of the targets. Wash, rinse, repeat.

This allows the Doppelganger to either kill one model a turn or inflict a bunch of Wp duels better than Pandora with Pacify. Just add Sorrows!

The Performer can debuff and inflict up to 3 Wp duels on it's own and is protected by Irresistible which requires the attacker to win a Wp > Wp duel.

The Mannequin itself can also inflict a Wp duel so it also has some use. If needed, the Mannequin can give the Performer the Use Soulstone ability if you can spare a 9 or higher so the Performer has a better chance of casting Seduction. This could be useful against Masters who will hopefully have a low Soulstone cache.

Maybe try these lists?

[30ss Pandora list]

* Pandora (Cache: 5)

5 Stitched Together

8 Doppelganger

8 Performer & Mannequin (6ss + Mercenary with High Class ability = 8ss)

9 Sorrow X3

Starting Soulstone Pool: 5

[35ss Pandora list]

* Pandora (Cache: 5)

2 Primordial Magic (Totem)

5 Stitched Together

8 Doppelganger

8 Performer & Mannequin (6ss + Mercenary with High Class ability = 8ss)

8 Hooded Rider

9 Sorrow X3

Starting Soulstone Pool: 8

Any thoughts? Other than Zoraida & Hamelin, who will be able to stand up to Wp duels of 8 or 9?

Edited January 24, 2011 by MrNybbles

[128th_king]

Uhhh leveticus, Cassandra or the coryphee duet with Its buffs up

[karn987]

Its a lot of models to pull off that trick.... I'm rather certain simpler lists will be more effective... but that would certainly work. So if you happen to have those models around, it is certainly another tool in your bag of tricks. But otherwise, I wouldn't build a list around it.