Strategy against Pandora

[Stargazer]

@Odin, Hunter means you can see through 6" instead of 3" of obscuring terrain I believe, so you wont be able to see through the stitched togethers fog.

I agree that yes you can deal with her crew if you can see it. One of the pandora builds I've come up against (and probably one of the best against a ranged guild crew) includes 2 or 3 stitched making a wall infront of her crew allowing them to move up as they wish, so at best you will be able to take out the stitched however due to their "Does not Die!" ability they still stay there until the end of the turn. By which point they are probably near enough to start seriously hurting you.

So as a hammer you have more than enough force to beat them head on, however being tricksy Neverborn you are unlikely to be able to have a "fair" fight.

Stagazer

[tadaka]

Ah ok i dont play guild probably why I did not catch on to that. Ya sucks to be them. So they changed the wording just to make the gov suck vs her?

[Ratty]

I do wonder if the new Book 2 options might have pushed her slightly over the top. She was already top tier and as has been said can more or less win regardless of crew. Adding a lot of models that have a lot of synergy with her like Coppelius, Stitched Together and Insidious Madness can't improve the situation.

[Ratty]

Ah ok i dont play guild probably why I did not catch on to that. Ya sucks to be them. So they changed the wording just to make the gov suck vs her?

Kel mentioned they were changing when Fall back moves were made, as well as defining FBM as a keyword to differentiate it to Falling Back. So it might very well be that the change is there so that it works with the rewritten FB rules

[Wodschow]

Ah ok i dont play guild probably why I did not catch on to that. Ya sucks to be them. So they changed the wording just to make the gov suck vs her?

I think they're really just streamlining the rules so that whenever you fall back you count as having lost a Morale Duel. It's the same deal with the Cerberus, and maybe some others that I can't think of right now.

It also increases her synergy somewhat with Coppelius as his Night Stalker (I think that's the one anyway) does damage when models fail Morale Duels.

Edit: Ratty makes it sound even more convincing!

Editide: Also increases her synergy with Teddys Smell Fear.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Wodschow

[Odin1981]

A model only dies from the proxy if they fail a morale duel the trigger doesn't make it a morale duel all her spells are wp resist flips however I do believe right now it is currently unclear so the upcoming errata will hopefully clear that up.

And stargazer your stitched together argument doesn't effect austringers at all, they do not require los and ignore cover altogether as per the weapon: raptor rule.

[Stargazer]

But the damage arc really isnt that great and you only get one strike a turn at 18", really isn't gonna dent the major things in her crew tbh and if you are within 12 then you are in the hurt zone for pandoras crew anyway

[Odin1981]

The damage arc doesn't matter she gets hit 2-3 times with that and she is in one hit knockout range of any other model in the crew. On top of with their high combat flip 7 + card they only need to get to a even flip to cheat in moderate 3-4 damage (if attack total has ram 4 with crit strike.).

[Stargazer]

Not when she can just put wounds straight onto the sorrows on btb with her...

[Odin1981]

Thats fine put wounds on a sorrow so she doesn't have a bodyguard for wound soak when high powered models target her.

Also you can only link one sorrow to her (as said per the link rules) It at best will soak up two hits (theoretically just one with a severe flip). The main problem I see this thread having though is mainly there is alot of stuff that does really need the new errata out before we (all posters involved in this discussion) to digest and such.

And on a side note. Too bad there isn't a vassal like program (40k or fantasy players have a chance about knowing this) that allows you to play the game on the computer. Also I would like to point out that I and I would really hope others on the other side of the argument. I am not saying that I would always beat the crew.

Just that the way I see the matchup I am of the opinion of it being favorable to the guild player's side ( I really should not have said only 15% chance of losing I was exagerating but in my humble opinion I would see the crew I listed as probably having a 65/35 matchup at worst with the 65 being in my favor.

And lastly for this post I would like to thank all involved for having a polite adult and civil like discussion (and as a side note putting up with my horrid spelling and sentance structure in some cases.) .

cheer's to all involved :-)

[Ratty]

Thats fine put wounds on a sorrow so she doesn't have a bodyguard for wound soak when high powered models target her.

Also you can only link one sorrow to her (as said per the link rules) It at best will soak up two hits (theoretically just one with a severe flip). The main problem I see this thread having though is mainly there is alot of stuff that does really need the new errata out before we (all posters involved in this discussion) to digest and such.

Not any more, you can link as many as you like to her.

(0) Link: This model and target model in base contact

with it are Linked. After the model this model is

Linked to completes a Walk Action or ends its

activation, Push this model into base contact with the

Linked model. Link ends if the two models are not in

base contact at the Start Closing Phase.

[Stargazer]

^ that I'm afraid, so with 3 sorrows, that's alot of punishment while your hard hitters have to get through the stitched fog. I do agree though that this Guild crew does have a better chance against Pandora than most crews but I still dont think it's in their favour.

Also it's not just sorrows it's any Woe in btb so in the worst case for the pandora player, when she runs out of sorrows things like Kade and Candy can soak up wounds. Although this would be pretty bad and only a last resort as it completely nullifies Pandoras movement capabilities. However in melee it's a very viable tactic (Kade is a pretty good bodyguard )

[Ratty]

remember though if she fading memories outside of her activation the sorrows DO NOT come along for the ride. Linked models only follow up your model after a Walk Action or at the end of its activation

Edited January 8, 2011 by Ratty

[Odin1981]

^ that I'm afraid, so with 3 sorrows, that's alot of punishment while your hard hitters have to get through the stitched fog. I do agree though that this Guild crew does have a better chance against Pandora than most crews but I still dont think it's in their favour.

Also it's not just sorrows it's any Woe in btb so in the worst case for the pandora player, when she runs out of sorrows things like Kade and Candy can soak up wounds. Although this would be pretty bad and only a last resort as it completely nullifies Pandoras movement capabilities. However in melee it's a very viable tactic (Kade is a pretty good bodyguard )

The only woes that have link are sorrows, and stitched togethers they aren't bad but they only have 7 wounds 2-3 shots does not die will trigger they might get reactivate depending on activation order and they will get sacrificed at end closing phase.

Or atleast from my perspective if your activating them first before pandora in a turn (which your pretty much are going to have to, if I keep santiago, perdita, and nino within 6" of each other cause if you do activate her first then I triple activate them between santiago's rapid fire, perdita's 2-3 shots, and nino's atleast 2 shots maybe 3-4 depending on masks in attack flips they will die quick.) .

[Stargazer]

However if the stitched activate before you only Nino will be able to see them. It's all very situational of course and this is all theoryfaux.

[Wodschow]

A model only dies from the proxy if they fail a morale duel the trigger doesn't make it a morale duel all her spells are wp resist flips however I do believe right now it is currently unclear so the upcoming errata will hopefully clear that up.

And as per the Pandora V2 card falling back from Mental Anguish counts as losing a Morale Duel.. So they'd die if in LoS of the Proxy. No ambiguity there. You can find all the V2 cards in a thread in the announcement section.

[Odin1981]

But you never took a morale duel so you would not die from the totem you would take a wp resist . None of her spells specifically say you take morale duels ie the lawyer spell. All her spells are specifically wp resist flips.

So the morale failure die of the proxy would not take effect.

[Ratty]

After defender loses a Wp Resist Duel it immediately falls back and it counts as losing a Morale Duel.

Other Friendly Guild models losing a Morale Duel while in LoS of this model are killed.

I think you definitely die if you have the governor's proxy in LOS of you. It's about as definitive as it can get other than putting, YES YOU DIE If Pandora gets Mental Anguish off on a model in LOS of the proxy. Edited January 8, 2011 by Ratty

[Odin1981]

Then your basically admitting to that specific ability being one of the first abilities being mentioned in the errata. Because no other ability/trigger in the game can be made that high in the game on top of box opens removing any immunity to "wp" duels (like constructs) on a master with use soulstone and her casting that is the only thing in the game that can get a theoretical total capped out at 33 given that her casting is 6mask.

However I would be perfectly happy to argue that simply put you do not actually take a morale duel so watchful eye wouldn't actually come into play due to "it counts as" is not the same as "this is considered a morale duel".

Also if that for some reason were to stand up (which as far as game balance issue would cause) that would pretty much ensure that any person above the intelligence of say an 8th grader there would never be any reason to take any master to a tournament other than her or leveticus.

And it would really be bent for any crew/faction possibly because you would be creating a situation where there is no defense, protection, really anything to defend you from that.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Odin1981

[Wodschow]

I really do not understand what you're saying and why you're saying it - sorry.

All I get is that you for some reason don't seem to believe that "counts as losing a Morale Duel" counts as losing a Morale Duel... As for arguing that this claim of mine is true, I am, honestly, out of words..

[Stargazer]

Welcome to playing against Pandora mate, a really tough challenge!! However she is beatable especially if you focus mainly on your own Strategy and Schemes and trying to ignore her and her crew as much as possible (obviously not completely otherwise she will just rip you to shreds.) then you can beat her. As far as only taking her or Leveticus to a Tournament then I completely disagree, almost every master has strong combinations you can take to do well and remember it's not an auto win even if you wipe out your opponents crew, I've won games with nothing left on the board before now!

[Ratty]

I think the first paragraph say: That can't be true that would make it the most powerful ability in the game.

Second paragraph says: I don't believe that "counts as losing a Morale Duel" counts as losing a Morale Duel..

Third paragraph says: If she is really that good why don't you just see her at tournament.

Forth paragraph says: But that means there is no defence to Emotional trauma. That makes me a sad panda.

To be honest. my answer to this is.

1) Yes it is a horribly powerful ability, why do you think everyone here is saying she is very hard to beat.

2) I'm pretty sure that is not a valid argument. I think counts as means it triggers the proxies execution of the model

3) People have other reasons to play than winning, like having a challenge, liking models etc.

4) There really isn't.. It makes me a sad panda too.

[Odin1981]

"It counts as" is not the same thing as if the spell take your pick which one having theory being "some spell" casting 12 range 8" resistance wp-morale# or just stated as morale duel.

If it is just counts as losing a duel per the falling back effect there isn't a problem due to it by spell (any of pandora's) are all wp resists (not morale duels) due to spells that are morale duels being specific in that in the resistance being said specificaly wp-morale#.

Basically the argument I am trying to make is simplified would be counts as is not the same as taking a morale duel.

Either way the unfortunate problem we both have is we are both trying to argue something at the moment that in my humble opinion needs new errata to be clear in its intent.

Because from both our points of view we actually have substance on each side but without clear information from a rules guru, wyrd employee I can see how alot of people could assume that we both are grasping at straws.

[Ratty]

What it says is having the trigger go off counts as the model having failed a morale check.

The proxy says when a model fails a morale check. At the moment the Trigger goes off it counts as having failed a morale check. This would trigger the proxies trait.

[Odin1981]

Basically what i'm trying to say is if "it counts as " is the explanation as to why you are falling back that I'm fine with, but if any of her spells are basically changed to be "morale duels" because of the trigger than thats a complete bunch of bull.

And really it would suck to be any other faction because off the top my head doesn't even have a prayer of possible resisting that ability.

Oh ratty since you are familiar with gw basically I guess the argument would basically come down to RAW vs RAI. With me basically arguing is this RAI vs apparently what would you guys on the RAW side due to as far as I know none of us having any info/input on the errata soon to come out.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Odin1981