Von Schill feedback thread. Please contribute.

[Sandwich]

The concept of Von Schill and his Freikorpsmenn are what initially drew me to him. In essence, you would think he was a commander who acted much like Lucius, but with much more of a combative flair. Where Lucius sits behind the front lies, Von Schill would stand side by side his men, with synergy flowing freely. This is not, to my experience, the case. His units each seem very independant of each other and I know that this is strictly because Von Schill is the only mercenary Henchmen and the idea was to give each individual model an appeal as a solo model so as to appeal to a very broad audience while still giving each of Freikorpsmann an over arching connection beneath a single leader; Von Schill. The Guild Guard, and Elite Division will be the primary group of models that I will draw my comparison, though not the exclusive.

I will take note that the Guild Guard and Elite Division are restricted to the Guild only and that the Freikorpsmenn are mercenaries, therefore the differences and logic behind my assessment will be given and I will not criminalize Wyrd for the way each model was created, only ask questions and statements of opinion.

Take note now that all ideas present in this work do not reflect the thoughts of any individual other than myself. I have played a current total of six games using Von Schill as a master, taking strictly Freikorpsmenn. This decision has led to hours and hours of fun on behalf of the models described in later portions of this work. Do not discount any of the models mentioned negatively in this post, as you may not draw the same conclusion as I have. I am still learning and will continue to change my ideals until my thoughts of this crew become constant.

The statistics and models intended for and synergetic with the other faction Henchmen will be used as the basis of my assessment of Von Schill and will be fair and at least attempt to give what I believe to be the logic behind each choice made. There will be no descent into excess detail about each and every aspect of each model unless it is necessary to do so.

Von Schill, Freikorps Mercenary:

A man hardened by years of combat, now elder and very much a sage of the battlefield. The powerful Freikorps bend to his whim, acting only for Scrip, these men and women give their dying breath for their beloved Captain.

When I first learned of Von Schill, from literally the moment I heard of his tale, it had, at the time, seemed apparent that his presence on the Battlefield would work to elevate the overall prowess of the Freikorps. My initial thought was that he would be a decent unit alone, but his true colors only shown when he was commanding his brothers(and sisters) in arms.

I then came upon his statistics and it was immediately apparent that this was not at all the truth. Von Schill has relatively no synergy with his intended troops. Now that is not to say that he is not a very powerful 9(10) Soul Stone model, well within the power range of a Henchmen, but, when compared to how perfectly Lucius works with his Guildsmen, not deserving of the mantle.

It would not phase me in the least if many of his personal combat abilities were swapped out to make him far more visceral when used in tandem with his underlings, though I am sure others will disagree.

One thing I have found to be completely missing with little knowledge to the reason why, is the lack of any real companion abilities. I can understand (0)Leader but it doesn't really work with the idea of "Get in, get done, get out."

----

More soon.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Sandwich

[Mazin1]

Got to play my first Game with V.S. and crew today against Rasputina and It was a positive one.

Von Schill was a beast. 2 shot a December Acolyte. Competed my scheme and helped with my objectives and withstood a turn of Rasputinas full magical wrath virtually unscathed. A nice bonus was giving her constructs slow.

Librarian was nice but wasnt amazing nor worthless. She just followed V.S. around bumping his defense since he really didnt take to much damage the whole game.

The Trapper was nice. Stayed in a building taking pot shots at Rasputina most of the game. Will buy a second.

The Specialist was nothing to write home about. I really want to give him another go though.

The Friekorpmen was what I expected for a 4 point model. He felt like a Guild lite model. Flurry is a nice ability for a 4 point model along with brutal and crit strike.

Nice first impression. Very solid crew. Not sure how they will will fair against the more elite crews (Lilith comes to mind) but this is a fun crew to play.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Mazin1

[HopelessHeretic]

I kinda disagree. The freikorpsman is one of the best four point models in the game due largely to his versatility. Let's start by looking at his abilities. The freikorps armor is amazing magic res one with armor one is like combining witchling stalkers with guardsman. Has stubborn and flurry similar to fransico but is not unique and a point cheaper. They also have scout and combat six very similar to the stalkers and combat five on the gun. While combat five is not incredible there are plenty of more expensive models with cb five.

Let's talk weaknesses. The freikorps has two weaknesses across all of there models low minimum damage and six wounds. For the korpsman six wounds is not that low in fact it is the standard. Minimum damage can be tough to get around for the freikorps but the korpsman has a few tricks to mitigate this. First flurry is a huge tool and second brutal can increase your damage output.

The trapper confuses me. On the surface he seems very good. There is only one model with that kind of range that is also cheaper (austringer). He also has cb six so you cant tie him up with a junk unit. Along with all his other bells and whistles he comes with but from the shadows confuses me. With von schills willing to die ability I feel like I am missing out if I deploy him ahead of everyone else. On top of that you can't deploy him near objectives. He also has no tricks to increase his minimum damage.

I really enjoy playing schill he plays incredibly defensively which I really enjoy.

-Heretic

[Scurry]

for me the specialist is fantastic, ignores armour is really useful and in 3 games with them he killed ryle + hoffman, killed Sonnia which went blast crazy taking out/severely weaking several of her crew and in the final match my opponent tried to tie him up in combat but cb6 with brutal tore through them very quickly.

[karn987]

Honestly Sandwich, I heavily disagree with your negative assessments of the Freikorpsman and the Specialist. They are both fantastic models and have been amazing resources and tough as nails opposition to me. The Specialist alone has been responsible for turning the tides of several games and the Freikorpsman are some of the best 4ss models in the game.

If your having issues with Freikorpsman being strong enough, consider that you are probably sending them up against stronger models most of the time. They are very versatile and their armor is amazing. They are not raw offensive like the Guild and they are no Punk Zombies sure (I honestly hope we never have another Punk Zombie ).

Honestly, with people admitting they have not played them much and have played them against some of the toughest opponents in the game, I feel confident is saying give them more time. You've just started play them and you'll figure them out more as you practice =). The hole in their crew right now is a heavy hitter hovering around 8ss like Teddy. For that you take Taylor or Johan and BANG high damage has been added. Supported by the other models they are lethal.

The crew is defensive and their are some synergies, but its more in covering each other and providing a unified front. Stubborn + their Armor can make them tough to take down without going for heavy over-kill. They all have ranged weapons with a very solid range and average Cb's which let them hit all but the most dodgy of models (so sadly Corphyee but then again next to nothing has a good chance of hitting them).

I think the point is, give them more time and try new things with them. They need some additional support in larger games to handle certain crews but you have access to a number of solid models. They are also FANTASTIC against Constructs and Undead thanks to having stats just right to hit them and for the Specialist, Trapper and Vonschill being able to do extra stuff to them.

[Sandwich]

Yeah so I just played my third and fourth games,

Versus Seamus and versus Lilith.

And I completely need to rewrite the Specialist.

He is a monster, holy sh-

Also, it was my playstyle that caused such a negative effect with the Freikorpsmen, because I'm so used to a "divide and conquer" approach to things, and I was simply not paying attention to Freikorps Armor which is what was really holding me back in the first two games.

When the entire crew stays "Close-knit" they're really a force to be reckoned with.

Definately buying more.

It was actually because of a comment that Wodschow made that I came to this realization, so if ever he reads this, thanks. :]

Edited January 2, 2011 by Sandwich

[cannonball]

What are peoples thoughts on taking two Trappers? Too many points to wasted vs. taking a Freikorpsmann and a Desperate Merc?

I ask as the Trapper has a great range on the Rifle and well with good placement you could have both pinging away for most of the game. And all the while Von Schill, Specialist, Librarian and a Freikorpsman run up the middle in a 25SS game with 1ss in the pool. Not bad?

[edit] And until the next book comes out I'd have to agree with other posts regarding including a heavy hitter in the list. Someone like Taelor looks great and the magical weapon is a real boon vs. Spirits. And spirits is something that this crew needs a few answers to. Nasty Kirai.

Edited January 3, 2011 by cannonball

[Sandwich]

1. I haven't gone against spirits but now that I think about them, yeah, they'd definately be the biggest problem you could face.

2. I actually did take two trappers in my first two games and they worked phenomenally, but I prefer the extra Freikorpsmen and the Soul Stones, because you'll really want them when Von Schill decides something really needs to die.

3. Big heavy hitters, at least Teddy and LCB, weren't really a big problem because most high damage units have low Df. Obviously if LCB touches anything, he'll rip it into many, many small pieces, but I completely destroyed him with the Specialist and and a couple Freikorpsmenn.

The biggest hurdle I had to overcome was the complete and utter lack of battlefield control, which I feel is a perfect balance to the awesomeness of Von Schill.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Sandwich

[cannonball]

Just played a 60ss Brawl game vs. Kirai and Seamus with us playing Seamus and Nico. The amount of healing they could get out there for their Spirits was crazy and the lack of magical attacks I could bring was an issue. With that in mind I think Von Schill would suffer the same to. Hmm to have had a Relic Hammer with decent Cb wading in would have helped a lot. Also if you do take Taelor then at least you know you won't have to buff her Cb as it's a respectable 7 as is.

Otherwise Construct, Undead and Beasts you have some answers to and the Freikorp armour keeps you plugging along.

[edid]Oh and the Librarian can heal any friendlys so Lady Hammersmith is covered to!

[cannonball]

And while I'm here thinking about it, the Librarian's [1]Antheric Theories could be good for Misaki. The +ve to casting flips are going to help to get the right suit for her cool spells. And Bisento is magical, has a high Cb and puts out some decent damage with [0]Fire so your covered there to.

And some of Misaki's fragileness is mitigated somewhat through Healing flips from the Librarian.

[Sandwich]

Wyrd could possibly make the Librarians Ancient Words magical?Although this wouldn't sit well with me, at least, as I view her as the support role, not a damage dealer. :/Perhaps change Von Schill's pistol to some super special personal weapon that just happens to be magical? Or give him a magical attack, or... I don't know.

[cannonball]

And the third option is to take Hamelin! [1]Aetheric Theories works well with all his spells although you do lose out on dealing damage to Spirits. Then again a few [1]Pipers Lure's, [1]Obey and [1]Irresistible Dance could see some of the nastier things out there take a walk for a while. And at least you don't have to worry about [1]Black Death

[cannonball]

Wyrd could possibly make the Librarians Ancient Words magical?

Yeah i know it would be cool eh?

[cannonball]

[edit] And with Hamlin and the Librarian you could trick it to get some major healing going on. 1st activate the Librarian, drop a Mask on Arcane Receptacle to gain masks on all casts, [2]Furious Casting, cast [1]Aetheric Theories on Hamlin, cast [1]Healing Energy twice. Activate Hamlin next and then cast [1]Obey on the Librarian three times for three more [1]Healing Energy's.

Crazy.

[edit]Oops, [1]Obey can only be cast once per activation.

Edited January 3, 2011 by cannonball

[cannonball]

And if you do take Hamlin and have a few Soulstones to spare, [1]Black Death looks like a handy way to trigger in Frantic on a Desperate Merc's. 3 vs. 4 wounds? I'm sure an extra +ve flip to Attack Duels is going to be worth the trade off as you'll want them dead_eventully_. As the Trapper will love [1]Jerky Time and Von Shills Willing to Die!!

Edited January 3, 2011 by cannonball

[Sezar]

The lack of magical weapons or offensive spells really hurted yesterday against Kirai. I got to the same conclussion of why Ancient Words were not considered magical, that would be ok fluff-wise, and I think it wouldn't really break anything, as the Librarian's primary role is not pretty offensive, so if she's attacking is not supporting the rest of the Crew, which she excels at.

Besides that, I'm loving my Friekorps. I really need some more games with them, specially to learn how to use the Trapper and Specialist well. They have been performing poorly for me, but I know it's been my fault 100%.

One thing that I just learned yesterday is that the Specialist is really really resistant in melee thanks to that :minus he inflicts on Wp6 or less enemies. Even while he's only on Df4, he could stand in front of the Ikiryo and one Oniryo for 2 turns (with some healing from the Librarian), until a Gaki came in and Absorved him whole...

The Librarian is a healing monster; Von Schill's +4Wp aura is godly, along with his great mobility and shooting. The Friekorpsmen are pretty good for their cost, and become great meat shields for protecting other more important pieces of your crew.

What I find confusing is the Trapper's Cb5 with the rifle and Cb6 with the Knife, but I guess it's ok game-balancing wise.

Anyway, can't wait for my next game with them, as Im really enjoying my 'Korps. Maybe I will start adding some mercenaries, specially when I face Kirai again

[Wodschow]

It was actually because of a comment that Wodschow made that I came to this realization, so if ever he reads this, thanks. :]

I read everything! Not really sure what you're refering to, but I'm glad I could help somehow.

[Sandwich]

It was a post you made about them being a close knit group of soldiers on some Rules thread, I believe.

I think I like Von Schill so much because of his drastic differences from Seamus.

I will definately be buying his boxset soon.

And a couple extra Freikorpsmen.

[Sandwich]

So I've played a few more games, and I'm starting to find a lot of problems.

Let me make a list, real quick.

These questions stem strictly to question I ask with each game I play.

1. Why is there no companioning?

Reasoning: For a close knit group of super bad asses, I feel like I am too drawn out, and it feels like there should be Alpha strike capability. I'm talking about the whole Guard Captain companioning 3 Guild Guard. Shouldn't Von Schill, captain of the Freikorps, be able to do this as well?

2. How do you get out of melee?

Reasoning: With ultra low Df and a huge reliability on ranged, how do you get your crew out of melee from a melee beast like Lilith or Lady J? I think that the root of this problem is solely due to the fact I have no ability to move my crew as one.

3. No matter how I try to lie to myself, the Freikorpsmenn often underperform. What do you guys who have great success with them do for success?

4. Are there any mercenaries that are good to take with Von Schill?

Reasoning: I've taken the Convict Gunslinger in a few games and he really felt like Von Schill had more synergy with the Convict than he does with his own crew.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Sandwich

[cannonball]

You know what, I think the next book is going to be good for them to. Maybe a key model here or there to address some weakness.

Otherwise #1? Could be a glaring omission or just because they have cool armour it wasn't thought about? And with no alpha strike I guess your holding your trigger with pleb Freikkorps til your killer move comes. That said perhaps Von Schill's Willing to Die is their Companion?

#2? I guess try and make the most out of [1]Magical Buffer and hope for the best? That said they do look like the crew that holds on, and on and on vs. moving to where you want them to be. Perhaps the Trapper and placing him well helps them draw out a control point game?

#3 Never played them. Although I do see where you're coming from in regards to damage output. Or underperform with movement? What games have you played? What's been the key point that's let you down?

#4 You know I reckon Taelor and Misaki are good due to their magical weapons, high Cb and damage output and the latter with her speed. All good things for a crew that looks like it's best at hanging around vs. putting out big damage.

[Sandwich]

His lack of magical attacks is probably intentional, to force the player to broaden their crew. As for the melee problem, I think their armor was intended to make you durable, but with incredibly low Df all around the table, it doesn't really help at all for a model with 6+ Cb.

I really would like a reasoning behind the general lack of a companion. :/

I suppose the strategy of waiting it out could work, but what would you do? Just activate and pass your models?

My total tally of games is 5.

Colette versus Von Schill - 35 - Won

The Dreamer versus Von Schill - 35 - Lost

Ramos + Nicodem versus Von Schill + The Dreamer - 35 - Won, thanks to team mate.

Lilith versus Von Schill - 25 - Won(Barely.)

Lady Justice(With Lucius) versus Von Schill. - 35 Lost. (Horribly.)

Edited January 8, 2011 by Sandwich

[cannonball]

I really would like a reasoning behind the lack of a companion. :/

He does have [0]Leader?

[Sezar]

To be true, in my book Leader is better than Companion. Sure, it costs one of the (0) Actions you're allowed, but it allows me to activate it in the middle or at the end of Vn Schills activations, instead of before the activation. I like it because sometimes it is not very clear if Companioning will be a clever idea, and it is great to have the chance of activating another Korp just after Von Schill when he's left an enemy almost dead, and you want it out of the game.

[Ratty]

After playing Seamus vs Friekcorp last night I'm not entirely sure of your opinion of Friekcorpsmen they seem to be very comparable to Belles. In close combat they do a fair bit of damage, Flurry + a decent Cb value + Critical Strike means that they can almost take down a belle even with Hard to Wound in 1 round, in return the belle does very little damage due to the armour. On top of that they have a decent ranged attack and a good basic move value.

[Dumb Luck]

I see the basic Friegkorpsman as a cheap way to buff up the numbers in your crew. Everything else he can get at the moment is just that little too expensive to have several of in a 35SS. The basic trooper is there to bulk out the numbers. As I found out with my Gremlins last night, it can be really handy to have some 'chaff' activations that you can use that don't matter. By the time the enemy has finished, you should still have Schill/Trapper etc to activate because the basic guys tied them up earlier.