Lilith, how rude

[Mazin1]

Well I played my 2nd game with Niko. Unfortunately, it was against Lilith. The beginning of the game was ok if not a little slow for me. The game really didn't pick up till the end of the 4th turn.

Lilith just killed a mz and I sacked a canine that was within 2" of her with Killjoy. I was feeling really good about this until he attacked her. Kj swung and connected with min damage but he soul stoned it so she took 2. I triggered onslaught but missed. then swung one more time with his melee experts and missed again because her defence was 10 he said.Top of 5 I got initiative and activated Niko. I bolstered unread and decayed KJ 3 times. I hit him with moderate damage each time but everytime she took ae damage he would ss to prevent the damage, so 9 damage turned out to be 3.

He activated Lilith and completely wrecked him. I was so angry about how completely stupid she is I just said good ge and scooped

looking back I realized I forgot some pretty important things. Kj has hard to wound 2 which actually would have saved Kj but I was so irritated on how good Lilith is. she doesn't seem to have any inherent weaknesses and with 8 ss is almost unstoppable.

again I realized I made some mistakes and gave up before I should of. my buddy even said something to the effect of its like cheating playing her.

anyways, just had to get that off my chest.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Nico vs. Lilith? Zombie Punks. Of course, I think they're a little ridiculous as well.

[Justin]

Lilith's weakness is her Wp.

...that's about it.

[Teal]

With Nico I think you've got it easy. Just spam soulstoned Rigor Mortis on her. At least one will get through, and then hit her with a swarm of bolstered Punks. Just keep her paralyzed, and you'll do fine.

[Mazin1]

Ya, pz are the bees knees, but they can't use soul stones.

It's all about sour grape for me right now. I know I messed up and should have played it out and READ MY CARDS!!

She's tough though, no doubt. I wouldn't mind playing against her again.

Hell, I need more games with Niko period. Been playing the Dreamer alot so Its a completely different experiance.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Yeah, Nicodem seems like a straightforward guy, until you realize how much logistics and forward planning is involved in his summoning. He is my favorite Resser though, if not the most popular.

[Q'iq'el]

looking back I realized I forgot some pretty important things. Kj has hard to wound 2 which actually would have saved Kj but I was so irritated on how good Lilith is. she doesn't seem to have any inherent weaknesses and with 8 ss is almost unstoppable.

She's a Master and a master that does only one thing at that. It means she's best at what she does and no matter how expensive your model is, it likely won't beat her alone.

Nico has 3 things going for him in any matchup vs. Lilith.

1. Decay. It's WP resist, her WP is low.

2. Roadblocks - she's fast, but you can still engage her with Punk Zombies or Crooked Men, if you deploy them where she needs to get to complete her Strategy/Scheme. Because they are all hard to wound and slow to die, they are quite likely to survive even if she whirlwinds them. Then you cast Decay, with high card and SS (if she gets to be the target, as you'll random it in melee) - once it explodes (moderate or severe damage), you'll not only damage her, but also heal up all your guys.

3. Bolster. Nicodem may be able to summon anything he wants, but he is a buffer first and foremost. Bolster Undead allows him to buff all your fighters to near-master level, at least stat-wise.

Not only that, but it so happens Lilith has 2 debuffs going for her. She debuffs your Cb by -2 if you miss her once, and she debuffs Df by -2 if you are within 3" (If Alluring spell's aura is up). It so happens that Bolster undead counters exactly these two debuffs (and gets you +2 to Cb on that first swing, before her Disappear kicks in).

Just keep Nicodem and Mortimer up with your zombies - close enough to be protected and not singled out, and close enough to provide Aura. If you lack on speed, use Fresh Meat to catch up with the model you want to catch.

Last but not least, Killjoy is a nice model, but Bête Noire works much better for Nicodem. She can spring out when Lilith kills one of the "roadblocks" and is actually a fighter good enough to dispatch Lilith, when using flurry, depraved tactics and when Bolstered up.

And yes, always hit her with Flurry. If she burns through her SS and Control Cards, she'll be helpless.

[Alondir]

when i played Lilith with Nico, well i prayed that she didn't get a strat that involved taking locations on the map, cos she can achieve most of them turn 2,

Then all of Nico's spells are WP based so take a Vulture and have some fun, ofc if your targeting lilith directly u need to use nico and not his pet, but keeping here paralysed for as long as you can is a big boost then kill everything around her.

A lot of people make the mistake of Para then trying to nuke her while her army is about. Cos they will rip you a new one if left to there own devices while you focus on there stunned master,

Oh and Crooked men are amazing for this Para with Nico then put a shafted marker on her location, cos there's a good chance as soon as she activates she will be stopped for another turn, as shafted has no resist.

using this there is very little reason to kill the master unless your getting lots of VP for it, just kill everything but an enjoy her not so fast crew.

[tenabrae]

Lilith's weakness is her Wp.

...that's about it.

10Wd with no armour, healing or defensive abilities other than high Df is also a dissadvantage for those who know how to exploit it... and nico has the tools built-in.

[Q'iq'el]

10Wd with no armour, healing or defensive abilities other than high Df is also a dissadvantage for those who know how to exploit it... and nico has the tools built-in.

Technically every master has healing abilities though. Transposition is also a pretty universal tool, providing for a decent defensive ability too.

Personally, I think Nico is one of the toughest masters for Lilith to face. He actually has the tools to both slow her down and get around her high stats. It's just a matter of learning the master and bringing the right crew.

[karn987]

I hate to say it Mazin1, but all the Neverborn Masters are sorta like this. They are hard to deal with untill you learn how to counter them.

But on to the point, yes Lilith herself is very nasty. You gotta watch out for where she can pop up and counter her with tough models. As has been said, she does a poor job of chopping through armor and she just slightly less hard then Lady Justice but twice the maneuverability.

If you try to directly counter her, you need another combat master of a strong minion/hencmen like Corphyee Duet or Lucius who have a chance of standing up to her. Otherwise you gotta just hit her with everything you got and accept the fact that she will out maneuver you and get her hit off on you where she wants to. Its sorta what Neverborn do.

Her Wp is her weak point, so try to exploit that. Otherwise go for Ae based damage that don't use Df as the resist.

The other thing is that this is a game that favors the aggresser. So many models are capable of obliterating tough models in a single turn. Nico is one of the ones that should have little trouble with lilith, surround yourself with Mindless Zombies and absorb her initial strikes and then get her back with Punk Zombies etc.

Edited December 25, 2010 by karn987

[xxXhayzelXxx]

If i've said it once i've said lots of times, Lilith is awesome!!! She is gorgeous, powerful and very tricksy!

Sorry but she is amazing!

[Mazin1]

Great Info in this thread.

I think Lilith is a shock and awe master but once youve seen it, you know what to expect. Funny, I play the Dreamer and I feel he is a shock and awe master. Ive seen how people counter him so I can choose the right tools to defend against her since we all know Niko is all about options.

[Justin]

Technically every master has healing abilities though. Transposition is also a pretty universal tool, providing for a decent defensive ability too.

Personally, I think Nico is one of the toughest masters for Lilith to face. He actually has the tools to both slow her down and get around her high stats. It's just a matter of learning the master and bringing the right crew.

I'd rather have Seamus than Nico when facing Lilith.

But that's me.

[Q'iq'el]

I'd rather have Seamus than Nico when facing Lilith.

But that's me.

I faced Seamus with Lilith and I had relatively little trouble. Perhaps it was the abundance of terrain to hide in, but both Lilith and her Nephilim could easily cut through the obstacles he could put up and grab the objectives (all that matters, right?).

With well played Nicodem it's all another story. Lilith actually cannot cut through Punk Zombies fast enough, especially when they are Bolstered and getting healed. If Lilith cannot do it, the Nephilim are even less likely to do it, so you have to gang up with several minions against one crucial model... but Nicodem has numbers advantage from the get go, which makes it difficult.

[Mazin1]

With a well played Nicodem it's all another story.

Well thats my problem.

[Justin]

I faced Seamus with Lilith and I had relatively little trouble. Perhaps it was the abundance of terrain to hide in, but both Lilith and her Nephilim could easily cut through the obstacles he could put up and grab the objectives (all that matters, right?).

With well played Nicodem it's all another story. Lilith actually cannot cut through Punk Zombies fast enough, especially when they are Bolstered and getting healed. If Lilith cannot do it, the Nephilim are even less likely to do it, so you have to gang up with several minions against one crucial model... but Nicodem has numbers advantage from the get go, which makes it difficult.

I find that if I can hit her with a hanged once, it's pretty much game over.

Granted, that's not the easiest thing to do, but when it happens it's definite.

I like to take the grave spirit, link it to Sybil, and then use it to cast Seamus's trail of fear (terrifying ->14 at 4" range). So that coupled with Sybil is two terrifying checks. Plus Seamus. And I keep my crew in a little bubble (spread out enough to help avoid whirlwind, but within trail of fear range) and cast undead psychosis on big things when I can. Maybe even moving towards them afterwards and forcing them to activate in the bubble, and at least forcing them to come near the hanged to do damage.

I suppose it is rather difficult. But I've never seen Nico put up much resistance to Lilith. She just transpositions past your zombies and goes straight for Nico and his cloud of mindless zombies. One whirlwind and it's just Nico. That's what I've seen, anyway. But maybe I haven't seen many well-played Nicos.

Edited December 26, 2010 by Justin

[Keltheos]

Dropping Jack Daw near her so she can't cheat or use soulstones then hitting her with Nico's spells also works well (heck, locking out her cheat/soulstone use and hitting her with anything works well...)

Of course, be careful you don't get your caster/shooter/whateverer stuck in his Aura's range as well.

[hippieshopper]

Also as you've said, Lilith is a shock and awe master.

Once you've seen her tricks you know how to deal with them.

Nico is a master of the war of attrition.

That is always a great tactic to use on everything.

Also, if the SS game is high enough...I mean 35+, take a nurse.

Once the Punk Zombies are low on health (I'd say 3 or below), if you can, sac em...a buffed up Punk Zombie can swing his PAIRED katanas at Cb 13...no, that's not a typo.

Making MZ bombs is kinda funny too.

A lot of things were already said, like healing, Wp duels, and all that.

I wish you much luck on your next game.

[Q'iq'el]

I suppose it is rather difficult. But I've never seen Nico put up much resistance to Lilith. She just transpositions past your zombies and goes straight for Nico and his cloud of mindless zombies. One whirlwind and it's just Nico. That's what I've seen, anyway. But maybe I haven't seen many well-played Nicos.

As far as my experience goes, Nico easily survives 1 or 2 turns of beating from Lilith. As long as he pulls Rigor Mortis, he can disengage at will without risking the Wicked strike. Last but not least, he shouldn't be alone. He should be within charge range of his Punk Zombies. That way whoever threatens him will have to deal with Cb8, paired weapon warriors with Flurry. Even Lilith won't have enough Control Cards and Soulstones to counter all Strikes from these guys, and they potentially do up to 6 damage. If there's a Bête Noire to replace one of the zombies. Lilith will die or end up paralyzed for several turns.

In the end it's all in the positioning.

On the other hand Lilith is a brood mother for a reason. Lone models stand little chance against her if there are enough Nephilim around her to take care of them.

[Justin]

As far as my experience goes' date=' Nico easily survives 1 or 2 turns of beating from Lilith. As long as he pulls [b']Rigor Mortis, he can disengage at will without risking the Wicked strike. Last but not least, he shouldn't be alone. He should be within charge range of his Punk Zombies. That way whoever threatens him will have to deal with Cb8, paired weapon warriors with Flurry. Even Lilith won't have enough Control Cards and Soulstones to counter all Strikes from these guys, and they potentially do up to 6 damage. If there's a Bête Noire to replace one of the zombies. Lilith will die or end up paralyzed for several turns.

In the end it's all in the positioning.

On the other hand Lilith is a brood mother for a reason. Lone models stand little chance against her if there are enough Nephilim around her to take care of them.

Yeah, I could see that being nasty.

[hippieshopper]

That is usually what I do.

Nico is always surrounded by his swarm and there is always something around to protect him if that happens.

Usually Punk Zombies ready to charge or flurry anything that gets near him.

[128th_king]

I'd say rigor mortis, bring 2-3 SPZ into melee range, leaving just a sliver for Nicodem to see through, but not enough for her to run through, then give everything you've got at getting nico to cast Rigor Mortis on her again, so that you can flurry her to death

[Vlad the Mad]

Also, when playing masters with a high SS reserve it's better to slowly lower that reserve to a more manageable level before engaging seriously - any master with 8SS is not really going to be easy to hit and damage by a model without the Use Soulstones ability. For Nicodem, I think both Decay and Rigor Mortis are good ways to force your opponent to use those SS when he's using Lilith.