Starting with Pandora...

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Karn's statement about the twins is spot on. The twins which you can take up to 2 of each so I like to run 2 of one and 1 of other in higher ss games.

To illustrate the power of the twins, put lilitu high if you can so she can see over most cover. Games on a 3X3 are played with a 24" no man's land, couple this with lilitu's 18" lure that means once a model has moved at least 6" from deployment which most can they are now in range of her lure. If they only move a little she has either float or flight so she can stay on elevated terrain and move her walk 5" and still get 2 attempts.

Her CA with it is 8 and a mask during the flip will trigger a second free cast. It is important to keep her high when casting because the push can put the model behind cover and out of LOS.

I would disagree that you have to companion Lelu each time. It is good sometimes, but it also makes you lose a activation order. I only do this if the model I lured in has not activated. If the model has activated I usually don't companion and save the activation. Also the greatest reason not to do this in a Pandora list is because lure brings models into Pandora's range so she can battle train on turn 1 easier. No longer do you have to cast dementia to be able to put Pandora in your opponent's face turn 1. Another thing on Lelu field him in a position that will have him in melee range of Lilitu's lure, or in a position where he can charge. Remember he is the slower twin and the easier twin to kill.

These 2 are woes and are really hard to kill since they can pick off your opponents major hitters. I would argue they have more synergy with Pandora than any of the other masters. This synergy pushes for Pandora to have a more melee strong crew they can also work great if you want to bring mature/young nephlims or terror tots to mature to young or mature, since they have drink blood.

[M_Ruckuss]

Coppelius- Against Seamus- kept him in cove or melees, but he companioned and lured away the belle i was in combat with then flintlocked him...... Should have trigger-flee Seamus with Pandora first I think.

Sorrows- I completly agree that they are all-round awesome, and that I need to get Pandora closer so that their abilities can be used to their fullest. I ran three, then 2, and have now started to run 1. Alot of the reasons are situational, but in a 25ss game, when im bringing 6 models and 2+ are insignifcant so dont count for objectives and some strategies Ive found myself at a big disadvantage. Furthermore, my opponents are well aware hitting them is the best way to hurt Pandora (blasts).

Im not questioning their value or efficacy, just that their insignificant trait (whilst balanced/fair) is putting me at a disadvadvntage with alot of the schemes we pl;ay (my regular opponent always has a small gleam of mirth in his eyes when I place sorrows for most of our games, being quick to remind me they are insignificant!!!!lol)

As for that list, I love it as an alternative, and could even bring myslef to drop a stitched and grab a pair of sorrows or maybe even Kade into the bargain.... I love the story btw! I have used them with Lilith, and (whilst knowing they are all 3 'main' types as neverborn) as being more appropriate, thematically, to The dreamer and Lilith. Long gone is that flawed way of thinking!!!

I read over and have seen the trick I was missing (I'm even thinking 2 lilitu at 30ss would be a laugh, maybe Pandora, lelu, 2 lilitu, 2 stitched and a sorrow.....) due to my silly ideas about what "nature" the neverborn are (if anything they remind me of the "perfect construct/undeads types without being specifically named as such:they incorporate all the best rules of these models!!!). I will let you know how they go!

[Complete aside from a thought I have just had- Can I hit Pandora (as a friendly model) with WP resist spells, win with Pnadora and use fading memory to push when winning. Is the illegal/unfair/unsporting/unessecary in your opinion? ]

I'll play a few game with the IM and see if I can use them to better effect ith some practice. Thanks for the input on them!

Kade over coppelius??! I know hes a sorrow cheaper, but Coppelius is my fav of them. I have reread tactica and see he can be cool- I play a counter attacking style of play, and dont think I could take sorrows and Kade- id use them both with Pandora (again im talking about smaller games now!) Is it worth dropping a stitched for him (i love the gambling spells- used after PE its lethal, and my main output of damage. Im thinking lure stuff, let ig go, make it flee with negatives wp for pe wthen gamble it to kill it (cheating up to 7dmg were possible, Pandora causes a wound, and lelu can cause an extra 2- on an average dmg flip I can cause lots of wounds, not including lelu and lilitus potential melee dmg.

The real question is i suppose for starting trialing this list I will have to go lelu, lilitu, x1 stitched. Do i then go for another, Kade, 2 sorrows, or lose 1 from s cache to bag another lilitu?

Thanks for your epic post, its been incredibly helpful (and persudaded me to base up my lilitu, lelu,

and Kade, as well as alps, dopple ganger and 3rd stitched ((like having the option and am thinking collodi...)) )

Cheers Karn

Also thanks to Mr B- read yur post and took it all on board before replying to this post-seom great input. Thanks tp you both!!!!

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I read over and have seen the trick I was missing (I'm even thinking 2 lilitu at 30ss would be a laugh, maybe Pandora, lelu, 2 lilitu, 2 stitched and a sorrow.....) due to my silly ideas about what "nature" the neverborn are (if anything they remind me of the "perfect construct/undeads types without being specifically named as such:they incorporate all the best rules of these models!!!). I will let you know how they go!

That list would be 34ss. Lilitu for the most part is good by herself pair with 2 Lelus because she can do the infinite lure. I have been able to pull in 2 models in same turn to be able to hit each with a lelu.

I am ancious for Nekima to come out, I wan to run her with a pair and terror tots with Pandora. I enjoy playing Pandora with a melee focus.

[M_Ruckuss]

Another quick q- know stargazer has already asked this in another hread somewhere but:

hypothetically speaking, if my stitched is killed, but remains in play (to be removed at the end of the turn) can I sacrifice it to someone a lelu/lilitu? I know it can't be buried, but is there a ruling here. Seems situational, unlike burying, as it needs limited cards (especially a lelu)

Edited February 21, 2011 by McDoogle

[M_Ruckuss]

That L&L/stitched list did really well against a resse list. It wasnt an optimum/conventional list by anyones stadards, and my flips were spot on every time so luck and selection (opponent was trying some new models he'd painted rather nicely).

Won with no losses (as in models) by 5 vp to 0vp (alhough lelu nd lilitu were both insignificant by the end of the game)

Pandora, 2 stitched, lelu and lilitu v seamus, grave spirit, flesh construct, sybelle, punk zombie and belle.

I flipped "escape and survive" and my opponent flipped "turf war", with a pitched battle set up.

(will finish post later as have stuff to attend to....)

back- Turn 1 I lured his Flesh construct with lilitu, and had killed it by the start of turn 2 with a stitched. His crew quickly consolidated and went down my right flank, and he was in my deployment zone pretty quickly.

Pandora managed to make sybelle flee, and she died on the last turn of the game, while lelu and lilitu, over the course of 3 turns (and with a little help from emotional trauma) dealt with the punk zombie, 3 belles (2 summoned) and seamus.

Flips, especially initiative flips went my way, so I had some luck.

Learning points- 2 stitched were useful, but one was lethal, the other covered the other flank at the start the game and struggled to make an impact, although this wasnt really an issue in this game. His presence did allow me to gain 2 of my 5 vps.

Pandoras line of sight became obscured by my own stitched, but to be fair seamus didnt get a single flintlock off so i cant complain.

Again, Kade or an Insidious Madness + totem are viable alternatives, but i will keep playing with 2 stitched for now. Any thoughts on the poltergeist totem??? Not to keen on Kade initialy tho s he also needs crows for triggers...thats 3 models who would use them

1 talking point that came out of the game was:

if Pandora targets a defender in line of sight in cover with incite etc, or stitched uses gamble your life, does the attacker receive a negative flip? thought (to be annoyance) they did, but my opponents are now saying they are unsure. Can anyone clarify please?

@ Ratty: We found it this morning, but thanks for the reply mate. Makes complete sense!

Lilitu give me range, and allows Pandora to get stuck in earlier if I'm lucky. Lelu is a beast and the crew worked really well on its first outing. Will need a sterner test against a more conventional list next time tho. Thanks to all who have contributed.......

Edited February 21, 2011 by McDoogle

[Ratty]

Another quick q- know stargazer has already asked this in another hread somewhere but:

hypothetically speaking, if my stitched is killed, but remains in play (to be removed at the end of the turn) can I sacrifice it to someone a lelu/lilitu? I know it can't be buried, but is there a ruling here. Seems situational, unlike burying, as it needs limited cards (especially a lelu)

Nope it says it can't be sacrificed after the Does Not Die effect is on the model.

[Drifter]

Maybe a good place to ask a question about pandora without opening a new thread, if not, well, sorry.

I'm playing a tournament on the following weekend and the one game I know about is slaughter or a line in the sand or treasure hunt against von Schill and his crew.

My gang is set and will look like this:

Pandora

Lelu & Lilitu

Kade & Candy

Poltergeist

(30 SS total)

The scenario I worry about is slaughter, because I will have to burn lots of SS to WP this stubborn lot to death and they are quite capable in melee too. So what would you do from a pandora kind of perspective? Suggestions for any other scenarios? Will go against the vics and So'mer too.

Thanks and cheers,

Drifter

[xxXhayzelXxx]

Good luck deary! Have some sweeties to help get you buzzing!

[M_Ruckuss]

Maybe a good place to ask a question about pandora without opening a new thread, if not, well, sorry.

I'm playing a tournament on the following weekend and the one game I know about is slaughter or a line in the sand or treasure hunt against von Schill and his crew.

My gang is set and will look like this:

Pandora

Lelu & Lilitu

Kade & Candy

Poltergeist

(30 SS total)

The scenario I worry about is slaughter, because I will have to burn lots of SS to WP this stubborn lot to death and they are quite capable in melee too. So what would you do from a pandora kind of perspective? Suggestions for any other scenarios? Will go against the vics and So'mer too.

Thanks and cheers,

Drifter

Others will give more constructive advice, so please listen to anything they say over me!!!!

1)Stubborn should not work when they try to attack her, as she is the defender for that purpose.

2)Cheat high and soulstone grunts with project emotions and make them run away. During this period you will have lots of time when they have negative flips (or maybe even double negative, as they are fleeing and affected by project emotions) You can then hit them with self loathing etc and pick them off one at a time.

3) wouldnt take lilitu and candy. I would go for either a second lilitu or a lelu. Lilitu allows you to lure twice as much (so upto 6 attempts plus the trigger if they are in range), and allows any models in range to heal upto 2wds per liitu, much better than candys sweets ability imo.(i suspect others may disagree) This will be particularly effective if you hit your targets with project emotions (say 2 freikorps). They may have stubborn but at are negatvie or double negative so cant cheat.

4) Lelu, Kade and Pandora all ideally want crows...with a control hand of 6 you arent going to get that many, so again I might go for a different model to free up free drain blood on lelu and flee trigger on Pandora.

5)Coppelius can make living targets run away and lose wounds easily: instead of candy perhaps?

In short, I would try to make some run away, lure some and deal with 1 at a time. And when you hit von schill, do it hard, preferably with a lelu/lilitu alpha strike!!

Hope some of this helps, there are other far more knowledgable than me (who i hope will correct me if any of this is wrong!), but that is what I would do!!!

Karn has said to me before most models will work with Pandora, so you should be fine if u play it right! Gd luck at the torny and hoped something in here helps, one way or another!!!!!!

edit:noticed re-reading you said your crew was set-in this case, Project emotions, make some flee, desbuff others, lure, slap with Kade and lelu, repeat next turn. Beast von schill when the opportunity arises, or just keep making him run away!!!! Get him to a board edge then make him flee again!!!

Edited February 21, 2011 by McDoogle

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Against freekorps it is best to remember that lilitu's ca is 8 when casting lure , which is the same or higher then the whole army even with stubborn. The defender has to beat the cast totaling, you still win with a tie, that means 1 wd for each time they get lured. With that said. Thousand cuts works just as good on them.

I would suggest dropping Kade and poltergiest for the doppleganger, double the emotional trauma damage and pull them in, it generally takes at least 2 lures once they are in the 12" range to get into Lilitu's melee range, that means the model is now down to 2 wounds, if Lilitu's free strike doesn't kill them then charge with lelu and you got a dead korps man.

Targeting Von Schill, spam wp duels on him make him burn his ss, then he will easily fall prey to your attacks. His mobility makes him a major threat, I usually focus on taking him down first. For 3 major reasons, one I don't like when he gives his army slow to die, second he is the fastest moving model, as long as he is on the board he threatens all of your army, last but not least he is usually the closest model to target since he is so damn fast, so I usually start my lures and battle train with him.

His first target will likely be the doppleganger so protect her, copying the WP duel defense and Emotional Trauma along with placing her btb with Pandora makes her very tough for him to take down.

The librarian is a major threat to since he will spam heal all the wounds you just did, taking him out is another big priority, so make sure you kill whatever you target, the twins alpha strike works great for this.

Remember you hit harder and faster with the nightmares, but you are susceptible to counerattacks. Candy's 8 wds and 7 df makes her your toughest model, push her into the fray and tie up his advance. Just don't bother tieing up Von Schill.

The biggest thing I fear when facing Von Schill is if his crew is in range to gain slow to die. If I am having to face slow to die after killing one of his models means he gets another attack before he goes.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[karn987]

Well it looks like our loyal Pandorites have already answered the question pretty much =D

@Mr Bigglesworth: Btw man, try to add more blank lines to your posts. They come out as a block of text and are very very hard to read >< The forums kills a lot of formating, but blank lines is not one of them.

Otherwise I think everything is covered here except... your worrying to much about Stubborn man. If you can get Project Emotions Pitty or get a Maddness into range to use PE, you can pretty much assure that you win the duels any way. Though a big mistake you are making is focusing heavily on the WP duels aspect of the game against a Stubborn Crew. Stubborn isn't that bad and really all it means is that they actually have a chance against her (I know, how dare they).

So you have Lelu which will eat Freikorps for Breakfast and Kade isn't to shabby himself, especially with his Sweatbreads trigger. The big thing you have to do is just keep up the assault. If you go in to kill them, then make sure they die. Biggles already pointed out how annoying the Librarian can be. So make sure to either A) kill your targets outright or Kill/nuter the Librarian. Dementia is a great spell against her because the Wp duels it caused won't let her get Stubborn to help her out because their is no defender in that kind of duel! So Dementia + Project Emotions Pitty = 80% chance of doing nothing all turn long and getting hurt for it. Or you could just Lure her out if she gives you LoS to her.

The Poltergeist is ok in my opinion but you would probably be better of with the extra 2ss to your cache since your going up against a generally hearty crew. I personally see totems as a nice addon, but the ss can some times be more worth it.

While I love Candy up and down, you may want to consider Coppelius like others have said. Or switch out Candy and the Polter for 2 Stitched Togethers or Candy for 2 Sorrows depending on your play style. Now you may be thinking "Sorrows against a Wp resistent crew? Bah!" well their is a reason for it... Pandora with 2 Sorrows will drop that crew like it was nothing if she can win the Wp Duels against them. Freikorps are semi-low Wds once you get by their defenses.

In the end, people often flail when they see Stubborn and honestly, it's not that bad if you use your debuffs often enough. Project Emotions Pity and the Madness PE are the way to go for this.

[M_Ruckuss]

Stubborn isn't that bad and really all it means is that they actually have a chance against her (I know, how dare they).

Not on is it. Presumptious upstarts!

[Drifter]

Yay, first, thanks for all replies and the good ideas. Considering the advice, I think its right not to focus too much on the WP thing and go for melee.

One thing I thought of is to incite the librarian because she will have to heal first or not at all... By now, I'm worrying mote about the second crew to face, the mad hatter himself with an attitude to lower my WP and lure me near his flintlock. Ah, will see what happens

Thank you all and cheers from Berlin,

Drifter

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Against the mad hatter I run a stronger WP crew because it by passes all the hard to wounds. It is a little harder to run melee against the undead, they have decent defense and decent amount of wounds.

Karn thanks for the advice, I some times post from my phone, it is a little harder to use spacing and edit. Still trying to learn how to type on the screen.

[M_Ruckuss]

Yay, first, thanks for all replies and the good ideas. Considering the advice, I think its right not to focus too much on the WP thing and go for melee.

One thing I thought of is to incite the librarian because she will have to heal first or not at all... By now, I'm worrying mote about the second crew to face, the mad hatter himself with an attitude to lower my WP and lure me near his flintlock. Ah, will see what happens

Thank you all and cheers from Berlin,

Drifter

I regularly play seamus, and a good lelu-lilitu combo can plain eat him. Get project emotions off and make them run. He can only summon 1 belle per turn with seamus, i would whittle them down and when I hit seamus hit him hard with 3-4 models. Sybelle is a good one to target early on as she lets his crew companion, and copycat can be a pain in the arseso watch out!!!!!

[M_Ruckuss]

Quick few question to have come out of some recent games. the guys i play with who taugh me to play have always believed wp-wp duels and my spells from pandora, WHICH DO NOT HAVE A RANGED ICON have suffered from a minus flip.

In short, this is wp-wp duels caused by stitched, incite/pacify and my spells such as self loathe/project emotions/dementia from pandora affected by soft cover, making me take a negative flip on the cast action, or are wp-wp duels, despite being a type of duel unaffected by cover?

Id be playing that they were, and would be happy if they were not. just wondering if anyone could clear this up for me???

Other point (which has been answered, but I cannot find the thread for the life of me, is a morale duel a type of wp-wp duel, or vice versa? I think it was a wp-wp duel is a sub-section of morale duel.....

Thanks in advance, McDoogle

Edited February 23, 2011 by McDoogle

[karn987]

Quick few question to have come out of some recent games. the guys i play with who taugh me to play have always believed wp-wp duels and my spells from pandora, WHICH DO NOT HAVE A RANGED ICON have suffered from a minus flip.

In short, this is wp-wp duels caused by stitched, incite/pacify and my spells such as self loathe/project emotions/dementia from pandora affected by soft cover, making me take a negative flip on the cast action, or are wp-wp duels, despite being a type of duel unaffected by cover?

Id be playing that they were, and would be happy if they were not. just wondering if anyone could clear this up for me???

Other point (which has been answered, but I cannot find the thread for the life of me, is a morale duel a type of wp-wp duel, or vice versa? I think it was a wp-wp duel is a sub-section of morale duel.....

Thanks in advance, McDoogle

Oh heck no. Cover ONLY effects Ranged Attacks. Now a spell with a Gun Icon in the range is a Ranged Attack Spell and are the ONLY ones that have to deal with cover. Otherwise, NOTHING else deals with it really.

So all those things you said, they are NOT effected by cover because they are NOT ranged attacks. Things like Incite/Pacify/Gamble Your Life are just duels against a target in range. You need LoS, but you get no cover against them.

Also a Morale duel IS a type of Wp duel.

In short, any duel using a stat is a duel of that type inaddition to whatever else it is.

So a Morale Duel is a Wp duel. A strike with a weapon is a Cb Duel and an attack Duel. Resisting a spell with a Wp resist is a Wp duel and a resist duel etc.

[karn987]

Against the mad hatter I run a stronger WP crew because it by passes all the hard to wounds. It is a little harder to run melee against the undead, they have decent defense and decent amount of wounds.

Karn thanks for the advice, I some times post from my phone, it is a little harder to use spacing and edit. Still trying to learn how to type on the screen.

No problem man, it happens all the time. Just wanted to let you know before it goes on for to long heh.

[M_Ruckuss]

Oh heck no. Cover ONLY effects Ranged Attacks. Now a spell with a Gun Icon in the range is a Ranged Attack Spell and are the ONLY ones that have to deal with cover. Otherwise, NOTHING else deals with it really.

So all those things you said, they are NOT effected by cover because they are NOT ranged attacks. Things like Incite/Pacify/Gamble Your Life are just duels against a target in range. You need LoS, but you get no cover against them.

Also a Morale duel IS a type of Wp duel.

In short, any duel using a stat is a duel of that type inaddition to whatever else it is.

So a Morale Duel is a Wp duel. A strike with a weapon is a Cb Duel and an attack Duel. Resisting a spell with a Wp resist is a Wp duel and a resist duel etc.

(gives out the longest sigh EVER) the number of times i've taken minus flips on the spells and duels...or havent even bothered... I thought it never really made any sense...

Oh well, cleared up now, cheers dude: BRING ON THE PANDA

[karn987]

(gives out the longest sigh EVER) the number of times i've taken minus flips on the spells and duels...or havent even bothered... I thought it never really made any sense...

Oh well, cleared up now, cheers dude: BRING ON THE PANDA

Never be afraid to ask my friend There are no stupid questions here.

[M_Ruckuss]

Never be afraid to ask my friend There are no stupid questions here.

Thankyou master, the terror tot of the forum is grateful....

[WUWU]

Oh heck no. Cover ONLY effects Ranged Attacks. Now a spell with a Gun Icon in the range is a Ranged Attack Spell and are the ONLY ones that have to deal with cover. Otherwise, NOTHING else deals with it really.

So all those things you said, they are NOT effected by cover because they are NOT ranged attacks. Things like Incite/Pacify/Gamble Your Life are just duels against a target in range. You need LoS, but you get no cover against them.

Also a Morale duel IS a type of Wp duel.

In short, any duel using a stat is a duel of that type inaddition to whatever else it is.

So a Morale Duel is a Wp duel. A strike with a weapon is a Cb Duel and an attack Duel. Resisting a spell with a Wp resist is a Wp duel and a resist duel etc.

Unless something has changed recently, as far as I'm aware, you don't actually need LOS for abilities if it doesn't specifically say LOS is required. So Incite/Pacify/Gamble Your Life could all be used from behind walls or around cover

[Ropetus]

Unless something has changed recently, as far as I'm aware, you don't actually need LOS for abilities if it doesn't specifically say LOS is required. So Incite/Pacify/Gamble Your Life could all be used from behind walls or around cover

Wrong. All abilities require LoS to the target. Incite, Pacify and Gamble Your Life all target enemy models and thsu require LoS.

This does not apply if the ability does not target a model (an Aura for example) or if the ability states it ignores LoS (Austringers for example).

-Ropetus

[WUWU]

Wrong. All abilities require LoS to the target. Incite, Pacify and Gamble Your Life all target enemy models and thsu require LoS.

This does not apply if the ability does not target a model (an Aura for example) or if the ability states it ignores LoS (Austringers for example).

-Ropetus

I appreciate this ruling, and it makes much more sense, but is this something you are making a judgement call on right now, or is there something in the books or errata you are referencing?

Seems this is contradictory to the (vague) ruling made here:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14973

I haven't seen anything that suggests abilities require LoS, whether they say "target" or not, in the books or errata.

[Sandwich]

Sandwich understands problem.

We're confusing Abilities and Actions.

Incite and Pacify are both Actions, both require LoS to use.

The Box Opens is an ability.

Abilities NEVER require LoS unless specifically noted.

Actions will ALWAYS require LoS unless specifically noted.

So you're both right, but a little misguided.

WUWU that was why when you told me about that I didn't understand, because you said Abilities.

And I agreed because you don't need LoS for a model's ability to take effect.

But to do Actions and most spells, you need LoS.