Dealing with LCB and the dreamer

[PM8K]

I didn't see anything on here, so if i missed it please direct me.

But how does the guild deal with LCB and the dreamer sprawling nightmares across the board? I had a teddy, copelius, and LCB on my guys who were just out of the deployment zone during turn 1. And LCB tore up LJ during turn 2.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I hope to find out soon how the Ortegas fare against LCB and the Dreamer. I'll report back shortly.

[karn987]

I'm working on a document that will basically be a guide to how to fight the Dreamer but it's slow going. It's hard to put things that are extremely situational down into formula's and strategies you can apply broadly.

But some basic ideas are these:

1) You have a big choice, either spread out and limit his initial impact damage or cluster up and hope you are tough enough to take it. If you spread out, be ready to have your flanks jumped or worse, your master if they are squishy enough. LCB can slaughter every guild master but Lady J without much trouble so you gotta always watch yourself. Keep terrain near you so you limit the base space for Nightmares to drop on. Buildings are great for this, just watch the windows >.>

2) Take out the Daydreams right away. If you have a shot, or you have to sacrifice a model to do it early on, do it. Daydreams are a lynch pin in his crew and taking them down will greatly reduce the pressure he can put on you and slow him down dramatically.

3) When LCB appears he WILL kill something unless the cards turn against him. He his extremely hard and has a massive 3" reach on those claws. A good Dreamer player will never bring him up unless he has something he wants to kill and is sure he can do it. Otherwise the Dreamer will just lurk around and probably drop Nightmares on you.

4) There is little you can do about an Alp bomb but take it and hope you can take it out. Since they don't have to activate to be most effective, they are the perfect minions to drop on your crew and Master to slow them down and possibly disable them.

5) All Nightmares but Teddy are very squishy. If you can hit them, they will go down quickly (especially against Guild who do a lot of damage).

6) Dreamers crew is very diverse and has several powerful crew configurations that all need to be tackled in a different way. This can make it very hard to handle him. So what you need to do is learn how to fight the Dreamer's main power, dropping Nightmares on you. There are finite ranges to these things and the longest range threat he can get on the bomb is rather startling, but you can almost always see it coming. learn the range of the drop and learn to visualize it.

7) Beware of Terrifying. The Dreamers crew has some very powerful Terrifying in it and some models that really capitalize on you fleeing. So high Wp models are a good choice as are models that won't flee (like constructs).

8) AE damage is very good against the Dreamer, especially ones that happen on a models death (ala Papa Loco). They will be clustered when they drop and you can almost always out activate the Dreamer if he hasn't dropped yet. So hold Papa back and once they hit, go nuts and try to take them all out at once. Almost all nightmares have Low side of average Df, so target that stat if you can and just blow them away.

9) LCB's threat range is huge. This can make it very intimidating for your master to venture forward. But you really have to do it to have a chance against him. Try to block the space his base can fit and hopefully you can form a buffer of models that will keep him out of his 3" reach of your master.

10) The dreamer can rapidly redeploy his models. You HAVE to be ready for this because generally, after the first drop on you the Dreamer will pick up his Nightmares and redeploy to your weakest point and continue to chew it apart.

11) Any kind of Slow to Die to Hard to Wound models are good against the Dreamer's crew, just watch out for the reach on some of these models. LCB is 3" and Lilitu is a wicked 4" so these guys can kill out outside of your retaliation range most of the time.

Hope that helps.

[Bas1]

1) You have a big choice, either spread out and limit his initial impact damage or cluster up and hope you are tough enough to take it. If you spread out, be ready to have your flanks jumped or worse, your master if they are squishy enough. LCB can slaughter every guild master but Lady J

Question: Why do you think Lady J is harder to kill than Perdita against LCB?

[quotemyname]

Question: Why do you think Lady J is harder to kill than Perdita against LCB?

If for no other reason, I would say scare tactics. I respect Perdita when she is between 3-10 inches away. She's a ranged master and does this really well. Nightmares are very close range. So there's really no deterrent to getting close to Perdita.

LJ on the other hand is predominantly melee. I only respect her in melee. Which means I'm going to be reluctant to throw my minions against a master that I know can tear them to pieces, and I really don't want to risk my master on her if she gets a chance to retaliate.

tl;dr: I want to be in Perdita's face. On the other hand, I worry more about being in LJ's face. This is an effective deterrent, making her "harder" to kill (with this or another melee crew).

[karn987]

If for no other reason, I would say scare tactics. I respect Perdita when she is between 3-10 inches away. She's a ranged master and does this really well. Nightmares are very close range. So there's really no deterrent to getting close to Perdita.

LJ on the other hand is predominantly melee. I only respect her in melee. Which means I'm going to be reluctant to throw my minions against a master that I know can tear them to pieces, and I really don't want to risk my master on her if she gets a chance to retaliate.

tl;dr: I want to be in Perdita's face. On the other hand, I worry more about being in LJ's face. This is an effective deterrent, making her "harder" to kill (with this or another melee crew).

Basically =D

But mainly its Lady J's Reposte like thing she can do. I've seen so many things run up and impale themselves on her sword, LCB being one of them. She also has 12 wds and an average Df meaning LCB has to either make 2-3 attacks to kill her, or get lucky.

Plus Perdita is really easy to ambush, you just drop LCB on her and he should kill her if you have a good hand. Even if he doens't her chances of killing him are less then Lady J's.

[Sholto]

I have fought LCB with Sonnia. I got lucky, being in range with a good set of cards when the Nightmare Bomb dropped in a cluster, and Flame Blasted them. Even so, it got nasty when LCB and Coppelius teamed up. I kept Sammael and Nino back and blasted away, and they won me the game. It could easily have gone very differently, though, if LCB had gone after my shooty guys instead of the obvious lure of the Executioner and Sonnia.

[karn987]

I have fought LCB with Sonnia. I got lucky, being in range with a good set of cards when the Nightmare Bomb dropped in a cluster, and Flame Blasted them. Even so, it got nasty when LCB and Coppelius teamed up. I kept Sammael and Nino back and blasted away, and they won me the game. It could easily have gone very differently, though, if LCB had gone after my shooty guys instead of the obvious lure of the Executioner and Sonnia.

Yup! AE's will nail the crew when they drop (about 70% of the time) if you can survive the LCB strikes coming at you. Just be aware that when faced with Sonnia, many Dreamer players will spread out the drops enough so that Sonnia can't get more then 2 with it. Or Sonnia will get a pile of Alps on her head and then she is in real trouble :/

[Stockholm]

i'm in the same boat at our club against the Dreamer. i play all guild all day, but lady justice the most competitively.

so here are my initial thoughts on Guild (Lady J) vs The Dreamer.

Cons:

1. your whole crew, minus da peacekeeper (or new constructs if you're proxying things from Rising), perdita and the executioner are living models and are getting worked over by the excellent terrifying juice the dreamer's crew puts out. Not to mention the alp bombing that hurts your living models when they activate within 1 inch. blah blah, the dreamer's crew is most juicy against living models = your whole team.

2. general lack of move effects by the guild means that the dreamer's crew can out maneuver you on the board 90% of the time, regardless of terrain. this won't always be true but "i can fly" and a big fat activations means the dreamer gets there and still makes it happen, so you're in a reaction role almost no matter what the strategies you are playing are.

3. nightmare melee rushery diminishes rockstar guild dakka: read all about it! being able to shoot down his crew on the way in with the best minimum damage in the game from ranged won't really mean shit against any decent player, so you need mostly melee models that can take a punch.

Pros:

1. crap defensive traits for nightmares (save teddy ruxpin) means hits are kills and even the big guys get rocked after 2-3 hits, even from your shmoe death marshals.

2. to abuse the above and to counter coppelius and alp slow and paralyze gnarliness, you want extra activation or some key simultaneous activation which the guild does very well.

3. the dreamers great mobility and burying abuse that makes him so bad ass, in general, also limits the number of models he has on the board - giving you extra activation opportunities early more often - and his rushing speed is needed to attack your crew or at least come in to deploy nightmares, letting you reserve a minion or two that can sneak away to focus on you know, completing the damn strategy or a scheme and winning the game.

Key Models I'm using:

1. Lady J > um, i keep some soulstones in hand and a mask or two in my control hand or make you think i am because wasting your activations attacking me is getting riposted HARD. also, massive melee output and charge power means nothing save for LCB with some cards or stones is a challenge. i use her to go straight for the tie him up and get my opponent to blow all their cards and stones as early in the round as possible so i can wreak havoc with my minions.

2. Judge > mostly, using his blades and bullets or flurry to rock. the judge just gets more attacks than other models. but you need to pull those masks to make it happen... hes a death marshal so hes not easy to kill and benefits from finish the job, hes a must and none of his skills are wasted against nightmares.

3. Peacekeeper > PK has roflstomped coppelius and the alps, as well as using toss to throw around their formation. the nightmare crew has no easy armor penetrating solutions, and i know that PK is wasted if paralyzed by squidface, but hot damn he's largely unstoppable against everything else in the dreamer's lineup. and again, with relentless and flurry hes getting more activation against a crew that is limiting yours as part of its juice. get 'em PK!

4. Governor's Proxy (& Death Marshals) > i use friar tuck mostly just to cast Lady J's combat prowess spell and be in LOS for some of my models that could use his Wp bonus but not all of my crew so he doesn't accidently murder anyone getting screwed by the dreamers spell that makes everything terrifying 13.

the extra activation from 2-3 models getting an extra melee swing is worth the risk. it turns death marshals into uber killing machines, especially with finish the job running and maybe an inspiring swordplay bonus from lady j murdering something at the top of the round. downright demoralizing what 4 point models can do.

5. Executioner > yeah, that's right. ignores terrifying and everything hits and kills minions, and a combat prowess makes him a teddy shredder, squid punisher, whatever.

if you proxy:

6. Drill Sergeant & Guild Guard Captain > um, Slow cure and inoculation? awesomeness. and then put some Guardsmen into to cordon those bastards and limit where that bastard can fly in and bomb you with all his friends.

Anyways, happy hunting. Love to hear anything solid to use with Sonnia, other than getting lucky..

Edited November 23, 2010 by Stockholm

[quotemyname]

I have to agree with pretty much all of those points. You give some good advice. LCB and his crew are nasty. But if you're brave enough to go toe to toe, and you can beat him out in the activation order, you've got yourself a solid chance.

PK is in fact extremely dangerous to this crew. When I went up against it, with LCB, he charged straight into the fray. Luckly, he couldn't get to my daydreams, and I was able to pick up and just fly around him to get to the squishy, tastier models. Because as The Dreamer would say, "He's no fun! I wanna go play somewhere else!"

With all this under your belt, though, I'm expecting a better game next time we go head to head

[karn987]

So are your Guildies doing? Having better luck against the Dreamer?

[Jonas Albrecht]

So are your Guildies doing? Having better luck against the Dreamer?

Only if you count a win due to no shows.

[quotemyname]

Unfortunately our work schedules have been directly conflicting recently. We're hoping to have another game this weekend. We'll see how it goes this time!

[quotemyname]

So we finally played that game. Guild won.

Knowing that I was trying out my new Alps, he selected Criid to lead his force. >_<

The alps got blown up turn one. All of them. I fought hard for the rest of the battle, and did a solid amount of damage, but losing half of my crew turn 1 was too debilitating to come back from.

That said, I now know how NOT to run Alps. I should have seen that coming. I was hoping I could sneak them into Melee before he knew what to do, but no luck there.

[huntroll]

Yeah, AoEs are great counters to Alps... I think Austringers may also be good vs the Dreamer, sniping out his hiding Daydreams or probably the stupid kid himself, if he wanders too far away from his Nightmares.

Edited December 6, 2010 by huntroll

[anathema]

How did the Alps get killed turn 1? Weren't they buried or did you go for the Alpha Strike? I'd be interested to hear what worked and what didn't for either side.

[quotemyname]

How did the Alps get killed turn 1? Weren't they buried or did you go for the Alpha Strike? I'd be interested to hear what worked and what didn't for either side.

It was exactly that: The Alpha Strike. I had a hidden Kidnap scheme on the Convict Gunslinger, Samael Hopkins, and a Witchling stalker that were all in the same corner of the board.

Turn 1 I flew up with The Dreamer, and unburried my daydreams ahead of me, leaving all of my models behind some low walls (yay cover for HT 1 models!)

I then flew in a daydream, and sacrificed it to bring out four alps. All were placed within three inches of Convict and Samael (activated). Two of the Alps were within 4" of the Stalker.

Such as my opponent's deployment was, Sonia didn't have LOS to any of them. She was blocked by the bases of a second stalker, her own totem, and a large wall that I'd dropped the Alps behind. In order to get LOS, he would have needed to move around the bases of his own crew (just the companion activation of the totem, moving it out of the way would not be enough). I thought since the terrain condition was Difficult Terrain (1/2 Wk on all terrain without a terrain element on it) that I would be safe at least for a little bit. Maybe long enough to activate a few of the Alps and at least do some damage.

Much to my dismay, Criid managed to just barely get LOS on the lead Alp. Although he had cover, Criid flipped relatively high on the AND soulstoned for a CC of somewhere in the mid 20's. The Alp with his defense of 4 never had a chance.

The lot of them got blown up pre-activation. Essentially wiping half the models I'd payed for before they could even affect the game in the least.

My remaining Stitched Together, Coppelius, Dreamer & Dreams, and of course Chompy fought hard, and caused a few casualties, but it was a downhill battle from there on in.

[Alondir]

the dreamer is very fast but just because of this why do people insist on launching across the board turn 1, sorry but just because u can do it doesn't mean its a good idea

and yea creed would be a pain, probably the best way to deal with her is bomb her instead of her crew and if she used inferno ur a daydream to bury things to get them to safety.

cos Creed is a master that kinda relies on ss to do damage (forbidden lore) so if u make her use em all keeping alive the counter attack is going to be very blunted

[quotemyname]

That is very good advice.

Alpha striking is abrupt and brutal. Opponents that are not ready for it may panic and make mistakes. Trying to initiate that reaction from this crew is as good a tactic as any IMO. I just have yet to pull it off properly.

I am currently exploring different methods of "the setup" with The Dreamer's crew. Ones that don't require relying on the Alpha strike and such. I'll be sure to update this thread with the results of our next game so you can see how it went.

[Alondir]

As well i wouldn't think of it as alpha (thats more and ortaga thing ) its more hit and run

do ur damage a gtf outa there

maybe have a daydream within 6inch of everything, bomb in with everything and use the daydreams to gtf outa there b4 u get hurt bak

maybe keep a stitched together dwn and the dreamer, cos that stitched isn't goin to die in 1 turn, then use the dreamer to relocate to a more weakened area.

ur just use it to get ur units shifted a few inch's, cos with combat units or Alps that can make a real difference to the damage output u can get out of ur crew.

[karn987]

Little bit of Thread necromancy here...

How are you Guild players fairing against the Dreamer now? Anyone having better luck? Worse luck? Need a hug?

[remy lebeu]

cant say i've had much trouble with LCB run ryle(immune to willpower ie terrifying) and executioner (terrifing himself thus immune and tends to heal himself everytime something kills him) add dita with her high defense and call it a day.