Anything new for Vik in Rising Powers?

[Amarel]

She's been taking a hit recently, so I was wondering if she's been thrown a bone in Rising Powers?

[Wodschow]

Other than the Freikorps there's only the Desperate Mercenary I think.. :/

[Amarel]

Aww.

Well at least I don't have to add anything much else to the painting pile .

Thanks.

[Wodschow]

Note I don't have the book, it's just what I gathered from the spoiler thread.

Also I think we still need the official word on whether you're even allowed to take Freikorps with the Viks.. There's something about them not being able to fight along other mercenaries as far as I recall.

[Killionaire]

That's only if you take Freikorps 'as mercenaries'. As in, hiring them out of the Outcasts faction.

Viktoria can only hire models who have Mercenaries as a tag. She is an outcast, and thus doesn't pay the +1 cost. Therefore, she's not 'taking them as mercenaries', but 'playing with other outcast models that have the mercenary tag'.

[Amarel]

Cheers for the Link, just what I needed . Hamelin is probably my favourite character (gameplay-wise) from Book 1 and as I already have Levi and Ramos, too, it seems like a good natural progression for me to pick him up (for model sharing). It does make it more of a shame how much I dislike the SPA models, though it seems.

I guess the Vik's will still be the back-up crew for playing with the brain switched off. Not a bad thing to have, I guess .

[Wodschow]

That's only if you take Freikorps 'as mercenaries'. As in, hiring them out of the Outcasts faction.

Viktoria can only hire models who have Mercenaries as a tag. She is an outcast, and thus doesn't pay the +1 cost. Therefore, she's not 'taking them as mercenaries', but 'playing with other outcast models that have the mercenary tag'.

It's kinda funny, all this you said is just something someone wishfully made up in another thread.

As of yet there is no official confirmation if we are to interpret the rules as such (which is the reason I said we still need an official word on the matter).

Now there might be a paragraph in Book2 somewhere that I'm unaware of as I don't have the book, but in Book1 there is -no- distinction between Viktoria hiring mercenaries 'as mercenaries' or otherwise.

Mercenary is merely a trait a model can have that allows it to be hired out of faction. Outcast crews can hire unlimited mercenaries, Viktoria is an outcast crew and is further limited to only being able to hire mercenaries this doesn't mean she doesn't hire them as mercenaries..

Also, I'm sorry, but the '+1 cost of mercenaries' is a really silly argument. All models hired out of faction cost +1 unless otherwise noted. The mercenary trait merely allows models to be taken out of faction unless restricted by other hiring rules.

If a model from another faction had the mercenary trait then masters from said faction wouldn't have to pay +1 SS to hire that model, but they would still be hiring a mercenary, and it would count against the 2 merc limit. This same model could also be hired by the three other main factions at +1 SS cost, again counting toward the merc limit. Finally this model could NOT be hired by the Viktorias or any other Outcast crew unless specifically allowed to do so.

This is how the rules work in Book1, please do tell me if I'm wrong and something else is stated in Book2.

I do wish for all good things to happen for the Viks, as they really needed some support (especially in brawls which it unfortunately seems they haven't received (unless V2 got rid of For Hired (crossed fingers))), but untill I hear an official ruling I will not consider the 'mercenaries aren't hired as mercenaries' as a valid argument.. :/

Edited August 21, 2010 by Wodschow

[karn987]

I've asked sketch about this before and got a similar explanation. But just a read of it makes it kinda obvious. Outcasts do not hire Mercs as Mercs. It's literally that simple. Since they are not hired as Mercs, the Feikorps Mercenary ability does not kick in and ruin your ability to take other models that happen to have the Merc type.

Just think about how everything is explained. You can only hire models from other crews that are Merc (normally). So when an outcast master hires an outcast model who happens to have the Merc characteristic, they are not invoking the ability of the Merc Char (ie hiring it out of faction) and thus not hired as a merc. See? Thats all there is to it. Especially since the language of Freikorps Mercenary lends to this understanding by stating "when hired as a Mercenary" ie there is a time when he can be hired as not a mercenary. And that is when he is hired within his own faction (Outcast) and thus Viktoria

The key is what "hired as Mercenaries" means. It refers to when you hire a model with the Mercenary trait from another faction then the one your master is in. "Hired as a Mercenary" is when you hired them from another faction. Otherwise you are not hiring them as a mercenary, you are hiring them as a regular minion from your faction. The Freikorps are not hired as Mercenary's by Viktoria, they are hired as regular minions. Yes they are Mercenary's (so she can take them) but they are not hired as them by her so they don't exclude other Mercs.

Edited August 21, 2010 by karn987

[Wodschow]

Hmm.. It's funny that you are saying this karn, since you yourself asked for an official ruling in the other thread, and there been no such thing yet.

You say you've spoken to Sketch so it seems pointless to argue my point any further, but as per my previous post I wish to remind you that ruleswise there is no distinction between hiring mercenaries as mercenaries or not.

Actually if mercenaries weren't mercenaries when hired by Viktoria, she wouldn't be able to hire them at all as she can only hire mercenaries. If they can indeed choose not to 'invoke their ability of being mercenaries' then it would be pointless to do so anyway.

[karn987]

I asked for one so it would be in the public eye. Why wouldn't I?

The key your missing is the "hired as Mercenary" part. If you hire an undead, do you hire it as an undead? No. You hire it as a minion. Do you hire a Nightmare as a Nightmare? No, you hire it as a minion. Do you hire a Mercenary in your own faction as a Mercenary (keep in mind what it actually means to hire a mercenary as a mercenary), no you don't.

Thats the answer. You do not hire a merc as a merc unless your invoking the mercenary effect of hiring them out of faction. Otherwise, they are just being hired as a minion. They put a distinction in the rules of what the Mercenary effect allows you to do. "hiring as a mercenary" is just understood when you hire a model through their mercenary characteristic ability. Otherwise, they are just a minion. Your not thinking of this past RAW I think. Yes the rules don't come out and say clearly and exactly what it means. But it strikes me as one of those things you easily pick up just from reading the rules and thinking about what their intent is and what they are getting at. Why else would they word it like that? They would just state that you can't hire other Mercenaries period instead of hired as mercenaries.

[Omenbringer]

Aside from what's already been mentioned she can hire Jack Daw (and the Hanged as long as Daw is in the crew). He is a Mercenary.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Omenbringer

[icemantis99]

It's kinda funny, all this you said is just something someone wishfully made up in another thread.

Nope! the Freikorps things says "If they are hired as mercenaries", meaning by someone out of faction, whether they pay the +1SS cost or not (For example, Dues Paid negates the extra SS cost for being hired as a merc).

Viktorias go very well with Freikorps, and have no problem using them.

I'm not quoting from the book, since I'm not at home, but I'll make sure to update this with the relevant text once I get home.

[Omenbringer]

Since I actually have the books sitting in front of me here are the relevant texts;

Rising Powers, Page 193, Von Schill

Friekorps mercenary: If a friekorps model is hired as a mercenary, no other model may be hired as a mercenary unless they also have the friekorps characteristic.

Also under Von Schill on the same page;

Special Forces Leader (Friekorps): A crew led by this model may only hire friekorps models and mercenary models. A crew containing this model may ignore the two Mercenary model limit.

And from Book 1, Page 96 under Minions:

You may only hire Minions from within your chosen faction or up to a maximum of 2 Minions with the mercenary characteristic. If you are playing an Outcast crew, you may only hire outcasts, including any number of Mercenaries.

And lastly, Book 1, page 189, Viktoria

For money: Crews containing this model can only hire Mercenary models during scraps. This model may join a crew with any other master in a brawl, but reduce its crew's available Soulstone Cost by 5

I would say that it does leave a little room for confusion because of the "hired as a mercenary" part under the Friekorps mercenary rule.

However if I had to make the decision at an event, I would have to say that no Viktoria can not hire Von Schill. My reasoning is that Mercenary is a characteristic of the model regardless of who hires them. It doesn't drop because an in faction model hires them into their crew. I would also say that the first part of the For Money rule on Viktoria emphasizes this point. Keep in mind I am not a Rules Marshal, I am just offering my take.

[icemantis99]

But von schills rule says "freikorps and mercenary models", which implies a differency between the mercenary tag and "hired as a merc". Otherwise, von schill would only be able to hire friekorps, and thats silly.

[Omenbringer]

But von schills rule says "freikorps and mercenary models", which implies a differency between the mercenary tag and "hired as a merc". Otherwise, von schill would only be able to hire friekorps, and thats silly.

First, for clarification all Freikorps models have both the Mercenary characteristic and the Special Forces: Friekorps charateristic. The first allows any master to hire up to 2 of them, the second allows crews containing Von Schill to lift the limit from 2 to as many as they want.

The hiring restriction when Von Schill is acting as the Master is there to restrict the Outcast faction models he may hire to only Mercenary and/ or Special Forces: Friekorps. Without that distinction in his rules, Von Schill would only be able to hire Friekorps. However, since he has the additional caveat of being able to hire Mercenaries (like the convict gunslinger) as well it opens a few more models up to his crew without giving him access to things like Gremlins, Pigs, the Desolation Engine, etc. All the henchman have a similar hiring limitation.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Omenbringer

[icemantis99]

Yes, exactly. But if the mercenary tag counted as "hired as a merc", then von schill wouldn't be able to hire non-freikorps outcast mercs, due to the freikorps rules.

So, merc tag isn't equal to "hired as a merc"

So the viktorias can hire both the freikorps and other mercs.

Yes?

[Omenbringer]

Yes, exactly. But if the mercenary tag counted as "hired as a merc", then von schill wouldn't be able to hire non-freikorps outcast mercs, due to the freikorps rules.

So, merc tag isn't equal to "hired as a merc"

So the viktorias can hire both the freikorps and other mercs.

Yes?

Except, as I have already mentioned above, Von Schill also has a rule (Special Forces Leader: Freikorps) that specifically allows him to hire any Mercenary model in addition to the Special Forces (freikorps) models when he is the crews master. When he is not the master (acting as henchman) then The Freikorps Mercenary Rule takes effect restricting the crew to only hiring friekorps models. I am really not sure how to explain it any plainer than this.

Also, the Viktoria's can only hire two of the Freikorps models without Von Schill because of the new Special Forces Rules on Page 34 of Rising Powers. If they didn't have the additional Special Forces (Freikorps) characteristic then she would be able to hire as many as she wanted because they are mercenary models.

[icemantis99]

But the freikorps rule says "hired as a mercenary". In a Vik crew, the freikorps aren't.

Von schills rule implies a difference between the mercenary type and being hired as a mercenary. Yes?

If there is a difference, then in a outcast crew, t&r freikorps aren't hired as a merc. Still limited to 2 without von schill, but that doesn't matter.

The point is, a crew led by the Viks can hire both freikorp models and other merc models.

Can't be simpler then that.

[Omenbringer]

Like I said earlier, the wording is confusing and not as clear as it could be.

Based on the rules on Page 44 of Rising Powers, under the minion block, bullets 2-4, Viktoria's For Money rule implies she is still hiring them as mercenary models, although without the additional Soulstones because they are within faction. Since she is hiring them as Mercenary models (the only way she can take them) the Freikorps Mercenary rule comes into effect and denies her the ability to take them since she is not a freikorps model herslf.

I have put a PM in to Weird Sketch to come take a look at this thread and hopefully levy a decision or comment.

[karn987]

I've said my piece and I'm with icemantis on this one. It clearly states "Hired as mercenaries" and thus means exactly that, mercs hired as mercs and not as regular minions. I don't read that page 44 as stating that as all because you do not hire models as mercs unless you are hiring them out of faction because that is what the merc rule states and what the hiring sections states. Otherwise they are just minions and the other rules are just clarifications of this point.

But we are just going in constant circles since the book doesn't out right state what "hiring as mercs" means in plain english we can't change your mind. So lets hope sketch is quick.

*sets down a trail of cookies*

[ProdigalPunk]

I am not sure exactly how I feel about it yet, but I think I will add to the conversation by putting to the Performers and in particular the high class trait.

That seems to point to there being a distinction between hiring something with the mercenry trait in faction and out of faction. I do not think anyone would argue the DuBois can hire more then 2 Performers even though they have the merc tag, so obviously it can be ignored sometimes.

[Omenbringer]

@ Karn:

Agreed, we will just have to wait for a Rules Marshal.

@ ProdigalPunk:

The Performers are a good example of how I think the Mercenary Characteristic might be ignored. Since they have the secondary characteristic of Showgirl it should allow them to be hired as either of these characteristic types. In short, in faction models hire them as Showgirls (ignoring Mercenary), out of faction have to hire them as Mercenaries.

I would say that there is a similar argument when Colette hires Renagade Steamfitter Johan who is both a Mercenary and an M&SU Member. In this case she can hire him as a M&SU member instead of a Mercenary and use Union Labor to avoid the SS markup.

At any rate, this is all opinion until someone official weighs in...so I guess I'll add some reese's to the cookie trail that karn is leaving.

[icemantis99]

*sets a layer cake under a cardboard box propped up on a stick*

... The bait is set. Now all I have to do is wait.

[Omenbringer]

Weird Skatch is going to be diabetic by the time we capture him in the box.

[icemantis99]

At least he'll die happy.