Thwart Scheme Question

[Shadowopal]

Did a search but didn't come up with an answer to this. I had a game on tuesday. I'm fairly new to the game (8 games now) and haven't even touched schemes yet. Busy just learning my crews. I forgot to mention that to my opponent who's fairly comfortable with the rules. We used Book 2 rules (we both had it long enough to read through it once at least).

So, he chose schemes and I did not. He chose Thwart for the Outcasts (Gremlin player) and Hold Out. I won the strategy (Shared Contain Power)with 4VP (3VP for killing all Masters and Henchmen and +1 for killing al Totems). He got 1VP for Hold Out (did not announce obviously) and claimed 3VP for Thwart (2VP since I did not earn VP for any of my announced Schemes and 1 since I did not announce any schemes). This made our game a draw (4VP to 4VP).

Not knowing schemes at all and being my first game with the Dreamer and Nightmares, I was thrilled to have tied. However, I decided I should look into schemes. I'm not begrudging my opponent 1VP for Hold Out. He got that. No question about it. However, the Thwart one has me puzzled. It reads as follows:

Thwart (Outcasts Only)

Sometimes, preventing the opposition from winning is reward enough...

Special

You may not announce this Scheme.

Victory

Score 2VP if your opponent does not earn VP for any of their announced Schemes.

Score 1VP if your opponent does not announce any Schemes.

I'm not understanding three points on how he scored for this strategy:

1) It reads like he should score 2VP if ALL of my ANNOUNCED Schemes scored no VPs. I didn't choose any schemes. Therefore I couldn't announce any. Should he have recieved 2 VP?

2) I did not choose any schemes. Is this the same as not announcing any schemes. Should he have received 1VP for this?

3) This one reads as an either / or situation. You get either 1VP OR 2VP not both. There is no "+" sign in front of the 1 VP for not announcing schemes.

Thanks for the help. I don't care about the game. I'm pleased I did as well as I did. I just want to know for the future.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Shadowopal

[nilus]

1) It reads like he should score 2VP if ALL of my ANNOUNCED Schemes scored no VPs. I didn't choose any schemes. Therefore I couldn't announce any. Should he have recieved 2 VP?

2) I did not choose any schemes. Is this the same as not announcing any schemes. Should he have received 1VP for this?

3) This one reads as an either / or situation. You get either 1VP OR 2VP not both. There is no "+" sign in front of the 1 VP for not announcing schemes.

Thanks for the help. I don't care about the game. I'm pleased I did as well as I did. I just want to know for the future.

1) Nope, No announced schemes means there was nothing to thrawt. So 0 VP for this one

2) I would say yes. You did not announce any schemes, so he gets the 1 VP.

3) Its one of the other. So either you announce a scheme and he has to thrwart it to get 2 VP. or you do not reveal any and he/she gets 1

[Shadowopal]

Thanks for the response Dan.

1) Cool. That's how I was reading it.

2) Interesting. I'll have to keep that in mind in the future.

3) again cool. That's how I read it.

So, my opponent should have received 2VPs (1VP for Hold Out + 1VP for Thwart). I'll have to watch out for schemes more carefully in the future and start to choose a few of my own .

[Svenn]

1) Nope, No announced schemes means there was nothing to thrawt. So 0 VP for this one

2) I would say yes. You did not announce any schemes, so he gets the 1 VP.

3) Its one of the other. So either you announce a scheme and he has to thrwart it to get 2 VP. or you do not reveal any and he/she gets 1

I don't know, I would say that you can't take this if your opponent takes no schemes. Otherwise it's an automatic free 1VP.

Although, I guess you don't know what your opponent took... but it's still pretty easy to know that he didn't take any.

[Lucidicide]

Although I agree with Nilus (and I think you should be able to take it regardless), it does read oddly to me if your opponent doesn't take any Schemes. That said, I don't know anyone who doesn't take Schemes once they have played a few games (there's very little to lose and much to gain).

[Shadowopal]

Agreed. Schemes are cool now that I'm learning more about the game and how my crews work. I will begin to use them in games with experienced players. I'm trying to get a group going at my LGS. So, I think it'll be a few more games before they are ready for schemes. Most have only had 1 or 2 demos with me as the teacher lol.

[Shadowopal]

So, Are these the official rulings? I haven't seen a lawman comment yet.

[nilus]

Nope, nothing is official until Keltheos or sKeTch chime in. Although for my tournament next week(which you should totally come to Shadowopal) this is the ruling I will be using unless they do chime in here and correct ebfore then

[Shadowopal]

I will try to make the next one. unfortunately, I am running the Warhammer Fantasy Ard Boys Qualifiers at Black Sun Games on the 28th.

[kbdrand]

Now, with the book 2 rule where you get 2 soulstones for each scheme you do not take, it could be advantageous to not always fill up on schemes in some cases.

[nilus]

I will try to make the next one. unfortunately, I am running the Warhammer Fantasy Ard Boys Qualifiers at Black Sun Games on the 28th.

Thats okay, I forgive you

I should have dates for my October and December tournaments setup tonight. So hopefully you can make one of the other.

Now when are you gonna start running some at Black Sun?

[Shadowopal]

I do a big display for Halloween in my front yard. So, I most likely will not make October (I'll be running around frantically fixing things most likely). But, I'll try to make the december one.

I'm working on Halloween. After that, I'll be getting into Malifaux promo mode. So, expect big things around the first of the year at Black Sun Games (if not before maybe).

[Shadowopal]

Just wondering if we could get an official on this? I know things are hectic. Just don't want it getting lost as I'm trying to learn things the right way. Cheers.

[Xango]

one thing is bothering me, how do you play without schemes against an opponent with schemes? giving him the opportunity to earn from 2 to 4 vp`s uncontested, this does not seems fair in the first place, just an opinion, greetings

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

No schemes announced, whether chosen or not would give your opponent (Greg I assume) 1 VP.

[Shadowopal]

No schemes announced, whether chosen or not would give your opponent (Greg I assume) 1 VP.

Thanks WS. I'm not revealing anybody involved other than myself. The person wasn't trying to be shifty. We both just misread the scheme. No harm No foul no need to embarrass anyone.

@ Xango: As I stated. I'm pretty new and have been just trying out a bunch of different crews. So, I hadn't even wanted to look at schemes yet. My opponent didn't realize that I was not choosing schemes or he would have suggested I do or he did not. We just didn't talk about it until after the game. From now on, I will be using schemes if appropriate. Although the extra soulstones are nice too.