Waldgeist and uproot

[bringer of death]

Can anybody tell me how uproot works as I have no ider

do's it make a wood or move it and is there any restrictions on size of wood

Edited June 13, 2010 by bringer of death

[Chucklemonkey]

My understanding is that it does not create a forest terrain piece.

You would target a forest terrain piece within 2" of the waldgeist and then move it to anywhere within 5" of it and walk the geist up to the terrain piece.

As such you require to have some forests on the table, unless of course you are using him with Lilith who can create an illusionary forest for the waldgeist to take advantage of.

[bringer of death]

Thanks

That makes sense after someone has exspland it

[nimuro]

The lack of a size restriction has opened it to some shenanigans recently. I was hoping that there would be a ruling stating on max size of the forest that they can move. I know that it is solved by judicious use of terrain, but if that is not forseen, it makes for some silly large forest surfing.

[notmikehill]

I managed to box an entire scrap force with 2 Waldgeists :rofl:

I think a size requirement would be a nice idea but I don't know if I could justify fielding two of them if I couldn't be able to move large amounts of terrain with them.

[Wulfen]

I always thought a better solution was to give the Waldgeist something like Illusionary Forest, like a 3" forest aura, instead of relying on shops/gamers to provide the proper-sized forests.

That way terrain doesn't move, but if there are no forests on the table you can still take a Waldgeist and have them be effective. That also should eliminate huge forest shenanigans.

[Q'iq'el]

I always thought a better solution was to give the Waldgeist something like Illusionary Forest, like a 3" forest aura, instead of relying on shops/gamers to provide the proper-sized forests.

That way terrain doesn't move, but if there are no forests on the table you can still take a Waldgeist and have them be effective. That also should eliminate huge forest shenanigans.

I feel they are very effective fighters even if there's no forest to provide.

They are also models clearly designed for high synergy with one master that actually can provide them forest.

Additionally, Malifaux does allow for crew modification based on terrain and strategy. Terror Tots, Silurids etc. all are situational for some masters and basic choices for others. There's nothing wrong with Waldgeist being more or less a basic choice for Lilith and only a situational choice for other masters.

Last but not least, the terrain rules in this game pretty much ensure you can get one forest on the table. If your shop doesn't have one and you want to play your Waldgeist, build your own portable forest and add it to the pool whenever you play. Only one bad thing can happen and that's the opponent taking the forest first and placing it on the edge of the map, so you have to get there first and then spend some turns to move the forest in the right place. There's pretty much no other way to stop you from placing the forest where you want (if he stops placing terrain before you get the forest, you still get to place 1 area terrain according to the rules).

[Wulfen]

I feel they are very effective fighters even if there's no forest to provide.

They are also models clearly designed for high synergy with one master that actually can provide them forest.

Additionally, Malifaux does allow for crew modification based on terrain and strategy. Terror Tots, Silurids etc. all are situational for some masters and basic choices for others. There's nothing wrong with Waldgeist being more or less a basic choice for Lilith and only a situational choice for other masters.

Last but not least, the terrain rules in this game pretty much ensure you can get one forest on the table. If your shop doesn't have one and you want to play your Waldgeist, build your own portable forest and add it to the pool whenever you play. Only one bad thing can happen and that's the opponent taking the forest first and placing it on the edge of the map, so you have to get there first and then spend some turns to move the forest in the right place. There's pretty much no other way to stop you from placing the forest where you want (if he stops placing terrain before you get the forest, you still get to place 1 area terrain according to the rules).

You're missing the point: Right now there is no restriction on a forest, so if I place a 10x10, or 10x4 piece of forest, I can move that around. Moving terrain on the table causes more problems than is worth it, especially when there is no limit to the size of the forest.

As it is right now the Waldgeist is way overpowered for its cost. My solution doesn't cause any terrain issues, as the forest is an aura surrounding the Waldgeist, so you don't have any nasty placement issues, and no arguments about forest size or placing the terrain at weird angles to pull some crazy stunts.

[Q'iq'el]

You're missing the point: Right now there is no restriction on a forest, so if I place a 10x10, or 10x4 piece of forest, I can move that around. Moving terrain on the table causes more problems than is worth it, especially when there is no limit to the size of the forest.

As it is right now the Waldgeist is way overpowered for its cost. My solution doesn't cause any terrain issues, as the forest is an aura surrounding the Waldgeist, so you don't have any nasty placement issues, and no arguments about forest size or placing the terrain at weird angles to pull some crazy stunts.

I definitely disagree with the notion it is overpowered.

That's out of my own experience though - I use one, sometimes two in a Lilith crew. I suppose other Masters being able to hire Waldgeist can turn him into more powerful ally, but then it is issue of unintended synergies - if you cuddle the main reason he joins Lilith crew, you make it useless for its intended synergy.

From my experience with Lilith, the opponents tend to avoid confronting Waldgeist. In fact, most opponents do their best to avoid fighting Lilith altogether - trying to pick her at range or with Rst:WP spells. The reason for this is obvious.

What it does mean though, is that the Waldgeistand his forest become more of an area denial ability than an actual threat, unless you force opponent to enter the woods by blocking an objective with it. That is very situational though. Area denial alone is a great asset for Lilith though and to be able to do it Waldgeist must both be able to control large woods and be a solid survivable fighter on his own.

Forest-moving ability may be cumbersome, especially if your terrain has some huge forests. This is a practical issue one can solve by making his forests more portable. The biggest forest I've seen used in play was the GW plastic forest I own (which is some 10"x8") and I have no problems whatsoever with moving it around. At worst I have to detach the trees to fit buildings or objects inside.

Typical tabletop "woods" are smaller than that.

By changing the rules to make his movable forests smaller, rather than your terrain more portable, you essentially turn a powerful area denial character into large-base fighter with extra survivability. It may seem fine if you are the player getting frustrated by area denial tactics, but that's the very point of Waldgeist existence. What to play human opponents for if they cannot bring anything challenging? If you take area denial out of the deal, it becomes somewhat useless for the prime master it is supposed to have synergy with.

Consider, what role does Waldgeist serve, practically, in an all-nephilim Lilith crew? IMO it is a counter to avoidance tactics. Lilith can do very little against crews with good ranged attack, which can also bring a solid meatshield or are fast enough to avoid her. Waldgeist, essentially allows her to channel such opponents into areas she wants to fight them in.

A typical master can always engage Lilith on his own terms (just wait for her to come where you want her to). This is her biggest weakness and the reason why experienced players do not go for her (great learning master, easy to counter once you know the ropes). Waldgeist is there to make her work for more experienced players, in my opinion.

Last but not least, there's a way to counter Waldgeist for every crew - kill it early. It will require assigning serious resources to it, but if your victory depends on terrain negotiation, and you have powerful area denial creature on the table, that creature *IS* your first target. Do it early on and forget about it. As simple as that.

Against fighty crews that wouldn't avoid melée with Lilith, Waldgeist does relatively little. Sure, he brings solid attacks and the forest area makes him a quasi-ranged creature, but the worst that can happen is that he slows a mini down. You don't worry about area denial when both crews actually want to fight it out close and personal.

Edited July 20, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[quotemyname]

My understanding is that it does not create a forest terrain piece.

You would target a forest terrain piece within 2" of the waldgeist and then move it to anywhere within 5" of it and walk the geist up to the terrain piece.

As such you require to have some forests on the table, unless of course you are using him with Lilith who can create an illusionary forest for the waldgeist to take advantage of.

Not that I'm challenging you, but has the ability been given errata or something? Can you point out where you're getting the two inch range from?

[Wodschow]

The spell has range 2?

[AvatarForm]

This is a freaking sweet idea!

About to begin playing and thinking of taking 2! Waldgeist for Lillith to counter Ortegas and other ranged foes. The idea of boxing in or denying objectives from Levi and Markus really appeals to me. Not to mention being able to be in base contact with multiple enemies at once... killing off Woes and Ramos' spider spam efficiently...

[quotemyname]

Note that since the Waldgeist isn't necessarily actually within melee range of a model that it can hit with Haunted Forest means that it doesn't get things like disengaging attacks, etc. Unless that model's base is also within the Waldgeist's 2" melee reach. Unless they changed that with errata as well...