Malifaux- Game balance between masters

[Hookers]

i think there is a lot of rock/paper/scissors involved but its also by design as you choose who you are going to use AFTER you know what you are trying to do.

so where other games have rock/paper/scissors and try to ignore that and deny it, creating competitive environments where you are only allowed to bring one group of guys and therefore must try your best to make an "all-comers" list. malifaux explicitly doesn't do that. you basically both throw rock and then play it out from there.

thats why i think its funny in the different faction forums people posting lists and asking for advice because your crew's effectiveness is wholly dependent on what you are trying to do and who you are facing. they are still used to how things work with other game systems i guess.

[eusebe]

Or maybe they just love one peculiar crew. As an example, if I would play Arcanist, it would be only to play stuffborg (steamborg, ramos arachnid) because I don't like the chimera and am not a huge fan about rasputina. As I play, let say in a fluff way, I refuse to take mercenaries (except when I think it makes sense) and to take some minions from the chimera and rasputina swarm.

So I have Ramos and my constructs, and will have to deal with all different masters with that basis.

It's not because the faction has several masters, and so several possibilities, that you want to play all of them, when your opponent could love his faction as a whole, and play with them.

This part is a little weird to me (I mean, for a tournament for example, if there is a young player with only a crew against a guild player with all the guild range of models, it makes the game pretty unbalanced, as one is over adaptative).

So I would prefer the classic system of a I have a crew and a little cache of minions and build my crew from that each game. I think it makes you think more in terms of balanced crew and allow to make disappear most of the unbalance that could exist

[Lucidicide]

Or maybe they just love one peculiar crew. As an example, if I would play Arcanist, it would be only to play stuffborg (steamborg, ramos arachnid) because I don't like the chimera and am not a huge fan about rasputina. As I play, let say in a fluff way, I refuse to take mercenaries (except when I think it makes sense) and to take some minions from the chimera and rasputina swarm.

So I have Ramos and my constructs, and will have to deal with all different masters with that basis.

It's not because the faction has several masters, and so several possibilities, that you want to play all of them, when your opponent could love his faction as a whole, and play with them.

This part is a little weird to me (I mean, for a tournament for example, if there is a young player with only a crew against a guild player with all the guild range of models, it makes the game pretty unbalanced, as one is over adaptative).

So I would prefer the classic system of a I have a crew and a little cache of minions and build my crew from that each game. I think it makes you think more in terms of balanced crew and allow to make disappear most of the unbalance that could exist

If you choose to limit your own choices for fluff reasons, I don't think you can really discuss balance issues.

That said, I believe that many tournaments take varied approaches, some of them requiring you to come with a specific crew list.

If you're just playing with your friends, do whatever you want

[eusebe]

Hum, I don't discuss balance issues and know that my way of playing is quite weird.

I played my gremlin swarm and had lot of funs and some success, and am happy the way it is for example.

I just offer some kind of explanation to the hookers that find funny the tread like how deal with these master or stuff like that. With my way of playing, it can make sense, cause you don't adapt you anymore, you just fight with what you have, accepting their strenght and weakness.

However in terms of balance, my last remark remains true.

All player don't have enough to afford them to have a complete faction, and sometimes just have a crew at the beginning, and that can be an issue if he falls against a full faction adaptative player (it will not be if he falls against a me i play weird stuff but like that, I agree)

[Hookers]

no its not threads on how to deal with specific masters with other specific masters that i find funny. those are definitely helpful for strategic reasons.

the threads i find funny are all of the ones asking for people to comment on a specific list. "My 30 ss XXXX crew list" "Is this a good list? what do you guys think?"

well, what is your strategy? who are you playing against? what does the terrain look like? you get to know all of these things before you play so coming up with something that is predetermined is kind of silly. even if you don't own a lot of models and only one master, the difference between a starter box and a starter box minus one dude for more soulstones is actually pretty big, and both can be better than the other in different situations.

and like i said the reason i think people are prone to doing that at first is because if they come from say, warhammer, that is what they have to do.

[Lucidicide]

Hum, I don't discuss balance issues and know that my way of playing is quite weird.

I played my gremlin swarm and had lot of funs and some success, and am happy the way it is for example.

I just offer some kind of explanation to the hookers that find funny the tread like how deal with these master or stuff like that. With my way of playing, it can make sense, cause you don't adapt you anymore, you just fight with what you have, accepting their strenght and weakness.

However in terms of balance, my last remark remains true.

All player don't have enough to afford them to have a complete faction, and sometimes just have a crew at the beginning, and that can be an issue if he falls against a full faction adaptative player (it will not be if he falls against a me i play weird stuff but like that, I agree)

I agree with the affording things. I've dealt with this in my own group of friends by saying you should come with a faction in mind to play -- that way you can't completely adjust based on what you end up with. Since many tournaments are run that way, I don't think it's a huge deal.

Yes, they still might not be able to afford it, but I have multiple crews and don't mind if people use them. I gave my friend without a job the Viks so he could play. Share

[ispep]

Just because each individual game has variables, and you are able to adjust for those variables after you find out what they are, does not mean that planning ahead is useless.

Say you prefer to only play with painted models. Are you going to not play at all until you have the entire line painted, or will you try and figure out what is most effective most of the time? Or "if I have strategy X and scheme y, how would crew Z work out?" There could also be ideas someone has that no matter the variables, it just won't work, and if you don't post about it, there won't be anyone to say "I tried that and it was terrible."

[dreadpiratelynx]

However in terms of balance, my last remark remains true.

All player don't have enough to afford them to have a complete faction, and sometimes just have a crew at the beginning, and that can be an issue if he falls against a full faction adaptative player (it will not be if he falls against a me i play weird stuff but like that, I agree)

While what you say is true, it's also true of just about every other game out there to some extent. It even is true of CCGs and CMGs. Hell, it's even true of life in general: The more money a person has compared to you, the more options he has. If you think that's unfair, just remember this: The amount of money you have is a direct result of your own actions and decisions. If you don't like your lot in life, then do something to fix it.

EDIT: The above might have come off as a bit harsh, but that wasn't my intention. I just wanted to post my thoughts on the matter and am not directing the above statement at anyone in particular.

Edited May 13, 2010 by dreadpiratelynx

[Lucidicide]

While what you say is true, it's also true of just about every other game out there to some extent. It even is true of CCGs and CMGs. Hell, it's even true of life in general: The more money a person has compared to you, the more options he has.

I feel like I just fell into the deep end of the pool.

[Hookers]

Just because each individual game has variables, and you are able to adjust for those variables after you find out what they are, does not mean that planning ahead is useless.

Say you prefer to only play with painted models. Are you going to not play at all until you have the entire line painted, or will you try and figure out what is most effective most of the time? Or "if I have strategy X and scheme y, how would crew Z work out?" There could also be ideas someone has that no matter the variables, it just won't work, and if you don't post about it, there won't be anyone to say "I tried that and it was terrible."

here i have to disagree. i don't think there is such a thing as a bad list de facto. i think the game is balanced well enough that no matter who you throw together they are good at something. if someone says "i tried and it was terrible" that i think that is actually a disservice to you as they might've not implemented it well, tried it for the wrong thing, etc.

planning ahead really only consists of reading the models' abilities and learning what their strengths and weaknesses are so that you can call on them at the right time.

if someone doesn't want to play until he's painted stuff then he won't play until he's painted stuff, or he might play with what he has painted or whatever. i don't know, its wholly personal preference. again i'm not talking about a post asking for general advice about what a model is capable of either.

even hans is useful i think. he can add something pretty vital for some crews that may lack it entirely. just because nino does it better, doesn't make it unbalanced or make him a terrible model either.

:tj:

anyways the thread is about balance and my point is that i think its balanced because of rock/paper/scissors and not in spite of it.

[ProdigalPunk]

I don't think that the game is as varied and diverse and you seem to want to make it out to be Honkers. I think each box set sort of set the tone for the master that came with it and although there is some variation, I think the guild having the most flexibility, I think having a core idea of what you are bringing to the table is a good idea. Marcus is mainly going to run with beasts, and even if he were doing assassinate against Pandora I don't see a lot of people throwing in Killjoy, even though he would be pretty good against her. I think experience with a certain crew can make up for what is lost in a major flexibility situation like that.

As for the main topic at hand, I think that as a whole it is not really an issue, and sort of boils down to three things:

1) Soomer Teeth is a hard master to play

2) Lilith and Perdita are hard masters to face

3) Some match-ups are intentionally one sided Sonnia vs Tina coming to mind

My assumed answers to that being:

1) I assume with the next book having a whole Gremlin's chapter Teeth will get better in time and have more viable options, probably more so then most masters will get down the line.

2) Metagaming, patients, and an evolution of tactics will probably help with this. They will still remain tough, but I do not think they are overtly broken.

3) I think this just gives the game a little more flavor, and probably does not really effect the whole picture too much. Some matches will be in your favor and some will be against you, but I think every victory is in reach.

[Hookers]

:doh: honk

I don't think that the game is as varied and diverse and you seem to want to make it out to be Honkers. I think each box set sort of set the tone for the master that came with it and although there is some variation, I think the guild having the most flexibility, I think having a core idea of what you are bringing to the table is a good idea. Marcus is mainly going to run with beasts, and even if he were doing assassinate against Pandora I don't see a lot of people throwing in Killjoy, even though he would be pretty good against her. I think experience with a certain crew can make up for what is lost in a major flexibility situation like that.

so the guild, a faction, is flexible, but marcus, a master, isn't? weird

the beasts marcus brings to reconnoiter will be entirely different than the ones he would bring to slaughter. post up a marcus list that says marcus plus 10 molemen and ask for opinions. people might say garbage, or can never handle the viks and ronin ignoring armor, but it'd probably be ok doing claim jump or recon against someone who doesn't ignore armor. either way you won't know until the see all the circumstances and the situations are that different

also if you think killjoy would be good at accomplishing assassinate against pandora then why wouldn't you take him? i usually try out things i think will work.

not trying to fanboy it up here, but if you don't think the game is varied and diverse then play the same opponent with the same factions 3 or 4 times in a row, flip for terrain, events, strategies, deployment, etc. and see if you have the same game twice.

[ProdigalPunk]

I meant that the Guild is more flexible in that if you know the faction you are facing a certain master will shine more likely then another. Other factions do not seem to stack against each other in that way.

The moleman list is nice, but if I get anything other then slaughter against it then I think I will still have a very solid shot of beating you without any speed. I realize that you were going to an extreme for effect, but that is sort of the point. And that list just proves what I mean. You would naturally take Marcus with that list, it does not make nearly as much sense with Ramos or Tina, since certain models naturally go with certain casters. I splash of something else here or there could be beneficial but the list as a whole needs to play to the casters strengths or you are going to short yourself too much.

Edit: I am not trying to bash the game in anyway I think it is great. I just think most "rogue" lists will be destine to fail.

Edited May 14, 2010 by ProdigalPunk
Clarification