Timberhick Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I completely disagree, not just globally with your opinion but also that game companies ignore the painting part. you see the Hobby is two-ways.. one side is painting, the other side is gaming. what you are saying is basically that the "competition" during gaming should also focus on painting.. but I think thats silly.. I mean the many painting competitions dont involve the gaming side right ? lets take the biggest company as an example... lets say someone enters golden demon with a unit of space marines, and the other enters a much better painted unit of grotz, but loses because grotz would never win from space marines in a game ? its completely silly, because the painting competition has technically speaking NOTHING to do with the gaming side. I understand and agree that it looks much better to see painted miniatures on the gametable, even people who dont want or can paint their miniatures for whatever reason would agree to that. but especially when talking about competitive gaming (tournaments.) it is in fact the game that matters, not the looks. and forcing these things together is unfair (as said before, there allready are painting competitions for the painting side, wich are usually much more rewarded and appraised than the game competitions as they are allready.) and also a bit stupid business wise, its allready an obscure hobby, dont make it even worse by alienating over half of the potentially interested parties. as for leaving miniatures unpainted being "insultive" to the companies ? not so sure about that, while I do paint my miniatures I often find my inproper paintjobs are much more insulting to the miniature than leaving it tin with a prime layer only also I dont see why a company should take insult by that. while its always good to see painted variants, the process from idea trough concept trough sculpt and final production, its allready rewarding on its own, and if people like and enjoy the final product but dont want to paint them, it shouldnt be insulting or any other negative emotion, after all, they like it so much its still ok in its bare form, a job well done Id say. The hobby isn't two sides though. The hobby is painting and playing. It is us who want there to be two sides. I look at it this way, depending on your perspective, this is a hobby that after painting your miniatures you get the joy of playing with them or in order to play in the big tournaments you have to paint your miniatures. I am in no way deluding myself into thinking that the average tournament in Smallville will have a painting requirement, what I am pleading for is the big tournaments(cons or hopefully the Wyrd only tournaments weekends) all have a painting requirement. I have been to both grand tournaments and PP tournaments, the difference is huge. so to round it up, I love the painting side of the hobby, but if anything the gaming side of the hobby is the underappreciated side of things (even tough we are talking about gaming miniatures here.. the game SHOULD come first, then the creative side.), lets not make that worse than it is. I needed to separate this particular part out. In the last 5-10 years years this doesn't hold water imo. The hobby has been all about the 'game'. Why would you think the game should come first for? Why does the game need to have the limelight? Why even have minitures for if the game is the important part? Would it not be easier for a company to produce cardboard counters then to spend all the effort into producing a miniature? We all know people who are much better gamerz then painters and much better painters then gamerz. Why should Nathan be catered towards, because he games better, over Eric who is a better painter? There will always be more tournaments then painting competitions. Why should Nathan be able to walk around with a chestful of medals and ribbons while Eric only has a statue or two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timberhick Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Sweet, game's not even on the shelves yet and someone's already brought up the 3rd rail of gaming - painted vs. unpainted... Darn tootin' Nip it in the bud now and we wont have to continue to have the topic. I(big IMO incoming) do not want the travesty of what PP did to continue to filter out through the community. You may not agree with me and I couldn't care less, but seeing the sea of pewter at their tournaments and being fully encouraged by the designers to have it that way sucked for the community. Nathan and Eric are going to have to think long and hard about what Malifaux is going to be about. Is it going to be just about the rules or is it going to be about the whole hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Well, let's just be clear, the 'hobby' isn't the 'game' and the 'game' isn't 'painting'. I don't want to get into it, but things basically boil down to this (and these are generalities, but pretty much spot on in my 18 years of gaming): Hobbyists don't understand the gamer's perspective... Gamers don't care about the painting... Painters don't need a game... I'm a gamer first, painter second, hobbyist 3rd. I don't have enough time/opportunity to get my miniatures painted, and I'd rather have peweter on the table than - to me - a poorly painted model. I do love writing about gaming, so isn't working up fiction for your guys also part of the hobby? Should I get upset when there's not 5-page long treatments of each model in my force and their backstories to go along? For me, the words fuel the imagination more than the painted fig. That said, do I like seeing games with fully painted models? Sure. Would I like to have some? Sure. Would I spend my gaming time just painting if I had time for one or the other? Nope. I'm a big proponent of rewarding painting - outside of the tournament itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (by the way, I both paint AND game FAR better than Nathan) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timberhick Posted July 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Well, let's just be clear, the 'hobby' is the 'game' and 'painting'.:marshmell So it's 'lets cater to the Gamers only?' It is the community who wants the divisions not the actual hobby. The hobby doesn't care less about the game, the hobby doesn't care less about the painting. The hobby cares about both equally. It is the people who make issues about one over the other. Think of all the hobbies out there that need the whole and not just a part, can't really be a scrap booker without the scrapbook itself, having everything you want to put into the book and showing that off doesn't show the whole effect properly without the book to put it into. We expect, when people show up to a tournament, that they will bring everything they need to play. It will most likely be a requirement to bring the actual models in order to play, but why? The miniature is merely a representation of some stats, you can use anything for that. 3 nickels for Ice Gamins, halfdollar for the Ice Golem, quarter for Rasputina and we have a fully playable Cult of December. Why does it matter to put the actual models on the table when the game itself is what is important. Like I said I have no delusions that there will be a painting requirement for local tournies, however when having a tounrament at a Con, it is more than just about the players having fun, it is also a tool for publicity. Seeing a sea of pewter compared to a sea of painted models..there is no comparission Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redstripe Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Well, let's just be clear, the 'hobby' isn't the 'game' and the 'game' isn't 'painting'. I don't want to get into it, but things basically boil down to this (and these are generalities, but pretty much spot on in my 18 years of gaming): Hobbyists don't understand the gamer's perspective... Gamers don't care about the painting... Painters don't need a game... Unlike Keltheos, and perhaps the rest of the Tourney Squad, here, I think painting is important to the hobby and to the game. Further, I think its important to Wyrd's identity. You can game, and you can paint, but bringing both together is something amazing to me. One of the best parts of a game is talking to your opponent about the awesome paint job he put on his minis or an intricate conversion. Maybe he's got a great story about why he painted his Sabertooth Cerberus as a white tiger because its an abomination rounded up by his Cult of December. That's what makes a really great game for me, two guys coming together to play a game and talk about their favorite hobby. I can understand that there are some people that aren't going to paint their minis. These are gamers and they should be allowed to play in tourneys. I'm not going to have as fun a game against this kind of player because he's after something different than me. It's a competition for him, its a social event for me. I don't think my perspective is any greater than his, however. We don't need to be pretentious fascists, here, and force everyone to paint their minis. That's not the answer, either. We can encourage painting and modeling by recognizing it alongside the game. Privateer Press doesn't do much to encourage painting. They offer no award as prestigious as their Hardboys tournament winner. Wyrd, however, has a long tradition of supporting the painting side of the hobby and I believe they will continue to do that. The painter and the gamer will be equally celebrated and the rare rennaisance man amongst us who can master both will be the one to set the bar. Forcing people to play the way you think the game is supposed to be played can't be the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) Man, timing the lockdown for this thread. Nick, I do think painting is as integral to The Hobby as the game itself, but I do not see painting as integral to the game. I use my imagination when I'm at the table, I don't depend on painted miniatures to spark it in me. And to say that someone's only in it for the competition if they're not painting misses any number of reasons as to why someone does not or cannot paint their miniatures. For me, and then I'm out on this thread, it boils down to this: Do I prefer painted minis to unpainted? Yes. Do I paint all my minis? No (for a number of reasons) Do I care if my opponent has painted or unpainted minis? No. Would I like to have all my minis painted? Yes. Would I give up gaming (social) time for painting (solo) time? No. Should Wyrd, which was a minis (i.e. painting/hobby) company first encourage painting at their official events? Yes. Are tournaments with fully painted forces arrayed a great promotional tool? Yes. Should Wyrd ever discourage a player because they haven't painted their minis? No. So on the hobby scale where left is gaming and right is painting, I'm somewhat left of center...and maybe that's how people should look at it, not as absolutes, but where do you fall on the scale and where's your tolerance of others on the scale? Edited July 20, 2009 by Keltheos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elysium64 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) We expect, when people show up to a tournament, that they will bring everything they need to play. It will most likely be a requirement to bring the actual models in order to play, but why? The miniature is merely a representation of some stats, you can use anything for that. 3 nickels for Ice Gamins, halfdollar for the Ice Golem, quarter for Rasputina and we have a fully playable Cult of December. Why does it matter to put the actual models on the table when the game itself is what is important. Like I said I have no delusions that there will be a painting requirement for local tournies, however when having a tounrament at a Con, it is more than just about the players having fun, it is also a tool for publicity. Seeing a sea of pewter compared to a sea of painted models..there is no comparission I agree with all the above, if I am at a Con and I see a game I have been wanting to check out being played with unpainted miniatures I will walk straight past, yet if I see a game that I have never heard of being played with good scenery and painted miniatures I will stop to find out more. Cons are there to promote the hobby as a whole, so we need to see good games attractively presented. Edited July 20, 2009 by elysium64 text to small Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Ok, I lied about being out... I've never understood this thinking, 64. So if the game's being played with unpainted figs but could potentially be the coolest setting and rules, you wouldn't give it a second glance? It's all about the presentation, not the substance for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skrivanek Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I pretty much agree with Kel. I love to paint minis and see painted minis, but I know how real life can intrude and prevent someone from getting some painting done. I REALLY encourage my friends to paint, even when they don't paint well. Be supportive and they'll get it done as their time and interest allows. It doesn't really bother me at all to see an unpainted force across the table from me, but I certainly prefer it. If someone is in it for the competition only, that's their choice. I can find my own ways to have fun (like completely spoiling their strategy through lunacy or mad smack-talk). Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoM Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Aaron, we are totally on the same page there. I paint when I can, but I'm not going to let that stop me from enjoying a game. and when all else fails, bone-headed game play can totally throw off your opponent and swing things back in your favor. That, or you're laughing too much to care that they're being overly competitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBugKing Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 The direction I am leaning with all of this is to have a scale of points that can be earned for painting. Right now a game can expect to see a max of 8 VPs for a Scrap and 10VPs for a Brawl. Taking this into account what I think would be reasonable is this: A fully painted force (See below for definitions) 5VPs 1/2 Full Painted Force (Rounded down) 3VPs At least 1 model Fully painted 1VP Fully painted would be a model with at least three colors and no unfinished metal showing. (Excluding wear and chips to a paint job) A completed base. (It's painted and not just black plastic with a slot still in it) Unlike some of you I don't like the look of pewter. I still play with unpainted figures when playing WM and Hordes though because it is allowed. I do try to field as many painted figures as I can though. The lack of a painting requirement has allowed me to take my time and do a really nice job on my figures. I also think that with a very clear definition of what counts as "Fully Painted" a gamer who has no interest in painting will still get the paint on his or her figures because that is part of the game. You need to have a Fully Painted force to get that last small bump. We are talking about an approximate 17% of overall score for a 3 round tournament Scrap and much less for larger or longer games. I do honestly think it is a fallacy that people who are Gamerz won't paint. If you are that competitive (And I am. I very much like to win) you will paint. I learned to paint well because it gave me an advantage with the GW system. Painting should be an integral part of the system. If it is then people will paint. For nathional invitational tournaments I think that painting should be a guaranteed % of the score. Something like 20% of your over all score. For these types of tournaments there would be several prizes though. Best over all. Best General. Best Painted. My, aren't you the loser? And possibly more. That all aside, I think that there should also be an award for at least Best Painted Figure for the local tournies. This would be something that would be voted on by the playing body as well as the TO. It is something else that AoM and I need to figure out and present to the Big Two. Another thing to keep in mind is that the tournament structure is going to be a guideline for TOs. If they wish to change certain aspects of an event, as long as they follow the rules to do so it will still be a sanctioned tournament. (The guidelines will be along the lines of proper information disbursement so that out of towners don't show up and find something totally unexpected.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoM Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 For nathional invitational tournaments I think that painting should be a guaranteed % of the score. Something like 20% of your over all score. For these types of tournaments there would be several prizes though. Best over all. Best General. Best Painted. My, aren't you the loser? And possibly more.Oh, you mean the NerdElemental L.C.D. Prize, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) There's a reason GW stopped forcing people who want to play in their shops to have fully painted forces... I know half a dozen people off the top of my head, all great gamers, who would never attend an event that tied how artistic they were into how well they played a game. Especially if the game didn't include painting requirements in its printed rules. It's enforcing a hobby mindset on people who simply want to play the game. Edited July 20, 2009 by Keltheos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoM Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 my mindset for painting and tournaments is to encourage, not discourage. Like Kel, I'd love to see painted models battling other painted models. I'd be even happier to see all of the models have smooth blends and interesting bases. That said, I know I've got lots of things that get in the way of me having things finished in time for an events. I want to be encouraged to paint, but I don't want to be turned away if I've got a model that's been fully converted but has only had the skin painted so far. I'm pushing for painting to come up as a tie-breaker. If you're awesome at the game, you should get the results you deserve. separate painting prizes are good too. I keep saying the same things, so maybe we'll see some of that showing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elysium64 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) Ok, I lied about being out... I've never understood this thinking, 64. So if the game's being played with unpainted figs but could potentially be the coolest setting and rules, you wouldn't give it a second glance? It's all about the presentation, not the substance for you? For me the hobby is about both in equal measure, and I would be willing to wait until I found someone who cared enough about the hobby to present said game in an appealling manner, or investigate the game on the internet. Why have a great game with a cool setting, if you cant appreciate the setting due to having lots of mini silver robots wandering around on your mums bed linen!!! As I said in an earlier post with regards to tournaments at Cons, I dont think unpainted figures should be banned, but painting should be encouraged with bumpng up/rewards, and I am not necessarily talking about the quality of the painting, as long as some effort has been made. I am both a gamer and a painter, yet I personally cannot understand why people would invest money in beautifully sculpted figures for their game and leave them unpainted. I have worked in a games shop and belonged to several gaming clubs in the UK and yes we have used unpainted figures to try out new rules, and if these rules are popular the figures then become painted. I have to say that I have not met any gamers at the shop or clubs who regularly use unpainted figures, maybe a UK thing? I guess these two sides of the hobby will never understand each other, which is a shame as we should work together to promote and support our hobby. Edited July 20, 2009 by elysium64 to sort out duplicate posts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBugKing Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 What I am striving for is not a gauge of how artistic someone is. I want to have very clearly defined guidelines as to what counts as painted. 3 colors could be red pants, blue shirt and brown everywhere else. 3 colors. It could be spray painted black with red and white pocadots. 3 Colors. These are obviously extremes but honestly requireing 3 colors could be just that. Heck three colors of spray paint. Assemble your figures and 3 quick passes of spray and you are done. This type of paint, while not in the spirit of the rules would suffice for the points. The intent is to make the guidelines bulletproof so that all players know what their psinting score is before the thing starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 For me the hobby is about both in equal measure, and I would be willing to wait until I found someone who cared enough about the hobby to present said game in an appealling manner, or investigate the game on the internet. Why have a great game with a cool setting, if you cant appreciate the setting due to having lots of mini silver robots wandering around on your mums bed linen!!! Now is that demonstrating the game, or random folks playing it at a table? I expect a game company to demonstrate their product with well-painted miniatures and terrain. They're advertising for the game, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 For those waiting for an official word on this from wyrd, unfortunately we have not yet finalized our long term tournament setup, however I can go through the values on which the decisions will be made. Wyrd values painters, painted minis, and producing sculpts which (hopefully) just beg to be painted, and will focus on rewarding those who focus on this part of the hobby. We will continue to promote the painting part of the hobby with frequent tournaments, prizes, trophies, instructional articles, etc... We have a whole set of ideas to produce new models which really will attract the attention of painters out there to be the basis for you to create your works of art. Wyrd will never turn it's back on painters, because honestly, both nathan and I would likely consider ourselves painters first and gamers second. (one of the reasons Wyrd evolved liked it did, focusing on minis to paint first and evolved into a game company) We also very much value gamers, gaming, and the pure art of the tactical decimation of your opponent and with the release of the game will be making every effort to promote the tournaments and other ways to facilitate gameplay. A big part of gaming is hanging out with your friends and getting in some games, but a huge part is the ability to go out to the game store, or a tournament and have this game in common, where you can have fun playing against a stranger for a couple hours and on the other side of the game end up with a friend you might want to play against again. I don't want to take away experiences like this from people just because they don't have the time to get something painted. All that said, I also agree that a tournament which brings everything together is a wonderful thing. I love the idea of great tournament players all pushing themselves both in their painting and playing to achieve a single prize. So what do we want to achieve? Basically the elusive goal of making everyone happy! And while I know that's not possible, I think we plan to keep clear focus on both halves of the hobby; to make strong efforts to promote painting without gaming, but also to promote gaming without requiring painting. Finally you can be assured that there will also be times where you will see the two combined, where the biggest prize of the day may only be available to someone who can combine all aspects of the hobby. In terms of this Gencon, the game is being released on thursday, and the tournament is saturday, so obviously people just getting into Malifaux will barely have enough time to get their warbands glued and play a couple practice games before the thing starts, and as such, painting won't be required. That said, there will be a prize (as announced), for the best painted crew in the tournament, so even under these conditions, we will not be forgetting about the painting aspect. Additionally, we have a "best of wyrd" category in the main painting contest, which is also a great chance to get yourself a zombie chihuahua bust. So I hope we are covering all aspects even in the rush leading up to this big Malifaux release and inaugural tournament. I think in the future, there will be multiple tournaments at Gencon and larger conventions, and I expect some of them will be painting optional with little penalty for unpainted minis, while others will weigh painting much more heavily. Well, this concludes my "smile and wave to both sides" post. The bottom line is that I'm a painter who loves to see beautifully painted minis, but also a gamer who doesn't have the time to get a crew done because of a crazy busy life. So I can't even make both parts of myself happy all the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Both sides can, if the hobbyists could realize there's nothing wrong with playing unpainted. I read a sign in a tattoo shop once: "The only difference between tattooed people and non-tattooed people is tattooed people don't care if you are not tattooed." Ironically, this sums up, IMO, the entire debate (artistic license on the interpretation): "The only difference between non-painting gamers and painting gamers is non-painting gamers don't care if you game non-painted." Having been a gamer/painter for about 18 years now I've seen enough to have this axiom borne out on multiple occasions. I've seen hobbyists refuse to game with someone who has unpainted figs, but have yet to see the converse be true. In an Obama America, can't we all just get along? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBugKing Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 I have worked in a games shop and belonged to several gaming clubs in the UK and yes we have used unpainted figures to try out new rules, and if these rules are popular the figures then become painted. I have to say that I have not met any gamers at the shop or clubs who regularly use unpainted figures, maybe a UK thing? I guess these two sides of the hobby will never understand each other, whish is a shame as we should work together to promote and support our hobby. Actually, yes it is a UK vs America thing. Having played quite a few UK based games where playing with unpainted figures is simply not done, you simply don't show up with unpainted figures period. However there is rarely any score given for painting and if it is it is independent of the generalship score. Oddly there is no feeling that a painting score is needed because people simply paint their figures up. Some of the paint jobs are abysmal but the point is that everything is painted. There is a group of individuals stateside that are into the game for the game sake alone. It is much more like chess for them. The hobby end of things is not considered. It is much more a question of who is the better tactician or strategist. (I.E. who plays their opponents better, deals with bad swings of luck etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 TBK has that on the button. The gaming scene Europe/US are very different. Europe emphasizes and focuses on the hobby while the US focuses on the game (and these are, again, general statements). You can see it in the conversational tone of the GW rules vs., say, PP's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elysium64 Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Both sides can, if the hobbyists could realize there's nothing wrong with playing unpainted. I read a sign in a tattoo shop once: "The only difference between tattooed people and non-tattooed people is tattooed people don't care if you are not tattooed." Ironically, this sums up, IMO, the entire debate (artistic license on the interpretation): "The only difference between non-painting gamers and painting gamers is non-painting gamers don't care if you game non-painted." Having been a gamer/painter for about 18 years now I've seen enough to have this axiom borne out on multiple occasions. I've seen hobbyists refuse to game with someone who has unpainted figs, but have yet to see the converse be true. In an Obama America, can't we all just get along? Rest assured that I would not refuse to play against an unpainted army, I would just make sure I beat them! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keltheos Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 Good man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted July 20, 2009 Report Share Posted July 20, 2009 In an Obama America, can't we all just get along? That depends on whether or not you have any Tattoos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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