Calculate the possibilities / Abandon Honor Trigger

[Dynamite]

Hi,

last month at the German Nationals, I encountered this interaction with Maxime2‘s trigger on her  but I‘m not sure if this is really correct (We are obviously not native speakers):

A) With the trigger and sufficent , can you choose a single model multiple times?

B) If yes, let‘s say the model was chosen 3 times, is the effect (discard a card or get stunned) also applied 3 times? What happens if I don’t want to discard any cards? The model will be stunned and then I‘m still forced to discard 2 cards, because the model is already stunned and cannot get the same condition again?

 

The questions also apply to the trigger of Misaki1’s :

Here, the wording is slightly different because it‘s „choose an enemy model“ instead of „choose one enemy model“, but does this make any difference?

 

I would appriciate some offical statement from Wyrd. Thank you.

 

Cheers,

Dynamite

[Moinetbeard]

both are different - calculate the possibilities can choose the same model multiple times, abandon honour has to choose different models.

[solkan]

I see no reason why the two triggers would be different, and no support for choosing the same model twice.

On 1/25/2024 at 5:32 PM, Dynamite said:

I would appriciate some offical statement from Wyrd. Thank you.

Please be aware that the errata and FAQ documents are generally once or twice a year, and the developers do not make official rules statements outside of those documents.

[Dynamite]

The second part of my question is already solved. This is covered by „This or that“ Choices in the rule book (page 34).

I‘m still confused why you can name the same model multiple times.

If they put it in the FAQ, I would be happy. 😅While they are at it, please add the word „only“ to Bete Noire‘s first :

People want to do this while being unburied and simply remove a Corpse Marker 24 inches away from Bete Noire. 🤨

[SunTsu]

On 1/26/2024 at 1:17 PM, Moinetbeard said:

both are different - calculate the possibilities can choose the same model multiple times, abandon honour has to choose different models.

Well, any rule clarification should be supported at least by a rule-based reasoning about why it should work in that way. A statement like this without any explanation is simply unuseful and confusing, so we should avoid things like these, at least in the rules forum...

If you want to argument why you think these abilities works diffent, we could speak about that. 😁

On 1/27/2024 at 6:53 PM, Dynamite said:

I‘m still confused why you can name the same model multiple times.
😅W
🤨

Well, why are you so sure it's legal stacking on the same model multiple times? Frankly I would like these situations would be clarified in a faq/errata document, but actually as I read these abilities I think those cannot stack on the same model multiple times.

My reasoning is that these abilities let you choose a model for each card of a specific suit you putted back in your fate deck. It's clearly a single effect that happen at the same time, so if you bringed back 3 relevant suited cards, you may select up to 3 models. Nothing suggest you can select the same model more times. But even if you should force the reasoning in that way, I don't think the output would be different: when you pick up a model, that model gain the "choosen" tag (it's not a formal game effect, but it's emerging by the ability sentence as written). Even if you would choose the same model 3 times, that model wouldn't gain a "choosen+3" tag, since it's not defined as a condition/token/other that can have multiple values. Finally last sentence says that the "choosen" model(s) have to discard a card or get stunned, and even if you would chose that same model 3 times, that remains a chosen model and the effect is "discard a card or become stunned" just once.

My two cents.

[SunTsu]

On 1/27/2024 at 6:53 PM, Dynamite said:

If they put it in the FAQ, I would be happy. 😅While they are at it, please add the word „only“ to Bete Noire‘s first :

People want to do this while being unburied and simply remove a Corpse Marker 24 inches away from Bete Noire. 🤨

Even if it's OT, I agree with you about Bete Noir's "rise again" that doesn't make sense allowing it while unburied, frankly I think this is a simple and plain mistake. But by raw until there will be an official errata it works that way unfortunately... 🙁

[Adran]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:36 AM, SunTsu said:

Well, any rule clarification should be supported at least by a rule-based reasoning about why it should work in that way. A statement like this without any explanation is simply unuseful and confusing, so we should avoid things like these, at least in the rules forum...

If you want to argument why you think these abilities works diffent, we could speak about that. 😁

Well, why are you so sure it's legal stacking on the same model multiple times? Frankly I would like these situations would be clarified in a faq/errata document, but actually as I read these abilities I think those cannot stack on the same model multiple times.

My reasoning is that these abilities let you choose a model for each card of a specific suit you putted back in your fate deck. It's clearly a single effect that happen at the same time, so if you bringed back 3 relevant suited cards, you may select up to 3 models. Nothing suggest you can select the same model more times. But even if you should force the reasoning in that way, I don't think the output would be different: when you pick up a model, that model gain the "choosen" tag (it's not a formal game effect, but it's emerging by the ability sentence as written). Even if you would choose the same model 3 times, that model wouldn't gain a "choosen+3" tag, since it's not defined as a condition/token/other that can have multiple values. Finally last sentence says that the "choosen" model(s) have to discard a card or get stunned, and even if you would chose that same model 3 times, that remains a chosen model and the effect is "discard a card or become stunned" just once.

My two cents.

For what it's worth,  I think the two sentences are written differently and the reasoning could therefore be different. Abandon honor I think clearly has no advantage to chosing a model more than once, because as it is written, you choose models, and only after you have chosen all the models the effect applies to each chosen model. 

Master plan is written in a way that my natural reading of it is that each flip of a card is treated separately, and so for each choice you have to decide to discard or stun before the next choice occurs. 

Even if you can't choose the same model in master plan ( and nothing in the text suggests you couldn't) the Defending player needs to decide on the outcomes without knowing the other models selected,  where as I would say that with Abandon honor you would know each selected model before deciding which ones to let be stunned  or which to discard cards for.  

I would ideally like them to both work the same way, but my default reading of the two comes up with 2 different outcomes.