Jackalope - Creature of Caerbannog

[Zeitgeist]

A question regarding the Jackalope's Demise came up during the last game:

During a single turn, can I decide if I want to discard a card first and than a muatation upgrade for a later attack? Or do I have to discard upgrades first?

[mythicFOX]

Quote

Creature of Caerbannog: When this model would discard a card for its Demise Ability, it may instead discard a Mutation Upgrade, if it does so it may ignore the Ability's Once per Turn restriction.

The word "may" makes it optional, you follow the rule each time it comes up and choose each time.  So yes you can discard a card then later discard upgrades.

If you had to discard upgrades first it wouldn't present you with a choice it would tell you to discard upgrades instead.

[Mycellanious]

4 hours ago, mythicFOX said:

The word "may" makes it optional, you follow the rule each time it comes up and choose each time.  So yes you can discard a card then later discard upgrades.

If you had to discard upgrades first it wouldn't present you with a choice it would tell you to discard upgrades instead.

But what if you discard an upgrade first, then discard a card? Is this legal? Does "ignores restrictions" mean "if you discard an upgrade it counts as being used 0 times" or "it counts as using the ability, but it can excees the once per turn cap"?

Because I dont feel like I've worded that very clearly, here are examples:

Interpretarion A)

1st attack.

The jackalope is attacked and discards an upgrade to not die. Because it ignores restricrions, the jackalope has used his demise 0 times.

2nd attack.

The jackalope is attacked and discards an upgrade to not die. Because it ignores restrictions, the jackalope has used his demise 0 times.

3rd attack.

The jackalope is attacked and discards a card to not die. At this point, the jackalope reaches his limit of once per turn. (But he can still discard upgrades)

 

Interpretation B)

1st attack.

The jackalope is attacked and discards an upgrade to not die. He has used his demise ability 1 time, and therefor has reached his once per turn limit (but can still discard upgrades)

2nd attack

The jackalope is attacked and discards an upgrade to not die. He has used his demise ability 2 times, but because it ignores restrictions, this is ok. He is still at his once per turn limit (but can discard upgrades, if he has any left)

3rd attack

The jackalope is once again hit with severe damage, but has no more upgrades to discard. He attempts to discard the Red Joker he was saving (his last card). This is an illegal move because he had already used his demise ability twice this turn which is more than the once per turn limitation. The jackalope is killed. 

 

Edit: I'm inclined towards interpretation B, because Creature of Caerbannog doesnt say that discarding upgrades "do not count towards the action's limit" but instead "may ignore the Once per Turn restriction"

[solkan]

19 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

A question regarding the Jackalope's Demise came up during the last game:

During a single turn, can I decide if I want to discard a card first and than a muatation upgrade for a later attack? Or do I have to discard upgrades first?

Strictest reading, after you take advantage of the Demise the first time (whether you discard a card or an upgrade), each subsequent time that you do you need to discard an upgrade to ignore the Once per turn limitation.

That's the short answer.  What follows is a longer argument that both that and a similar interaction could use a FAQ/errata.

--

Bonus Actions have a similar sequencing issue:

- Actions Generated by Triggers says "Bonus Actions generated by Triggers may be taken even if the model has already taken a Bonus Action during the current Activation."

So you get this weird situation of wondering whether this sequence:

• Bonus Action generated by Trigger
• Regular Bonus Action

is valid.  The rules explicitly say that this sequence is:

• Regular Bonus Action
• Bonus Action generated by Trigger

but reversing the sequence isn't specified.  I think there's going to be some expectation that the trigger generated Bonus Action doesn't block a non-trigger Bonus Action being used after it.

Proposed errata:  

Quote

Bonus Actions (F) generated by Triggers do not count against the limit on the number of Bonus Actions a model can take during the current Activation, and may be taken even if the model has already taken a Bonus Action during the current Activation.

It's the same with Demise(Eternal) and Creature of Caerbannog.  This has to be okay:

• Demise(Eternal) w/ 'Once per turn'
• Demise(Etermal) using Creature of Caerbannog to ignore limit

as does this:

• Demise(Eternal) using Creature of Caerbannog to ignore limit
• Demise(Eternal) using Creature of Caerbannog to ignore limit
• repeat until tired

But this sequence:

• Demise(Eternal) using Creature of Caerbannog to ignore limit
• Demise(Eternal) w/ 'Once per turn'

runs into a problem that you're violating the 'Once per turn' limit.  It's the same Ability, and this is the second time you've tried to use it.

Proposed errata:

Quote

If an Action (or Ability) can be taken ignoring a limitation, those uses do not count against uses where limitations are applied.  If different limitations apply under different circumstances, every limited use counts against the currently applicable limit.

---

But that's what it is.