Gremlin Crier and FFM\EL

[Platov]

Hello, guys. My question is quite simple, actually. Would "Makes no sense" aura counter Frame For Murder? If enemy sucker is killed in aura, will it score? Same for enemy master, will you get VP for Eliminate Leadership, if master is killed in "Makes no sense" aura?

[Amdor]

Can you quote the "Makes no sense" condition? I don't have the book at hand and the direct wording can be important in this case.

[Dentre]

[Amdor]

Thanks

I'd say yes, it counters both of those schemes. The wording is quite straight forward, if they're within the aura, they get ignored when scoring.

[Dentre]

For me it looks like it's not working for both "Frame For Murder" and "Eliminate Leadership".
Ability says that "models are ignored when scoring Strategies and Schemes". You are receiving VP for killing or sacrificing the "sucker" model which means that your model doesn't scoring any VP. And anyway model killed and only then you are receiving VP for "Frame For Murder".
For example models affected by "Makes no sense" condition will not be able scoring "Guard the Stash" and "Extraction strategies".

[Angelshard]

That is a tricky one. 

My gut tells me it shouldn't work on ffm or eliminate, but I can't find a rule or faq to support it or refute it. 

When the model is killed it haven't left the table yet, so it's still within the aura and shouldn't count, on the other hand the scheme doesn't card about the model itself until it has left the table and at that point Its out of the aura.

Regarding reducing a master to half wounds I'm really uncertain. I think I'd argue that it would count the instant the aura goes away. But not while it affects the master.

[Amdor]

21 minutes ago, Dentre said:

For me it looks like it's not working for both "Frame For Murder" and "Eliminate Leadership".
Ability says that "models are ignored when scoring Strategies and Schemes". You are receiving VP for killing or sacrificing the "sucker" model which means that your model doesn't scoring any VP. And anyway model killed and only then you are receiving VP for "Frame For Murder".
For example models affected by "Makes no sense" condition will not be able scoring "Guard the Stash" and "Extraction strategies".

I'm sorry but I don't understand your explanation for FFM. My interpretation is that since the sucker is in the "This makes no sense" aura, it's impossible to score VP from that model, even if it's a scheme that specifically checks for that model's death. And since the window for scoring is the exact moment that model dies, it is impossible to score from it afterwards, there is no sucker in play to score from.

Denying models for Guard the stash and Extraction is the straight forward way of using "This makes no sense" so there's not really an issue there.

[Dentre]

Model isn't scoring in "Frame For Murder" by its self. VP for "Frame For Murder" is a result of death of model so scheme is done passively. When we have deal with "Guard the Stash" model is scoring by itself. I can't see that the ability is denying "sucker" status of model (because sucker isn't condition).

[Amdor]

But if the sucker is being ignored as a model, it shouldn't be giving VP when it dies, status or no status.

I see your point now, but disagree with it. We need more evidence to come to a mutual conclusion.

[Dentre]

Totally agree. Thanks for a discussion.

[WWHSD]

It gets weirder when you have to take into account which model gets the condition. If the condition is placed on the FFM murder sucker and then the sucker is killed by an enemy, would that enemy be counted as the model that that dealt the killing blow? 

I would think that it would since FFM is checking a killing blow being dealt and not for the existence of a model.