Opposed Trigger Timing Chart (OTTC)

[Kogan Style]

Hi all,

Following a Twitter conversation I read about trigger timings, the inevitable "Flowchart of timing" comment came up and I thought, why not have a go and make one?!

The goal of this piece is to help players (particularly new players) understand when triggers are activated, the importance of the distinction between after damaging and succeeding triggers and create a clear process for timing that all players could follow with regards to abilities found on the front of model's cards. So here is my 1st attempt:

 

Dropbox of the file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rauapl24yes73p1/Malifaux Trigger Chart.pdf?dl=0

I've included what I think are the relevant FAQ and where they come into effect during the flow. The FAQ answers are on the second page of the dropbox file for reference. 

It has helped me so far in understanding timing, for example if I want to bring back Huggy with Lynch (via Rising Sun) and I kill a non-brillianced model on 1 wound I would need to use his hold out pistol to kill the enemy model rather than pay for blood, because the pistol has an after damaging trigger while Pay for Blood is after succeeding, which would result in the model getting removed before it got Brilliance.

I'd like to hear from the faux community about whether any of this is accurate, what I could refine/improve and what I have that is just plain wrong! One question I have that isn't clearly stated in the FAQ (probably because it is obvious) is that does an after failing/resolving trigger on a defending model not get used if the model is killed during step 5. I don't think it would as the wording would clearly state otherwise.

Edit: updated with Bengt comments

 

 

[Bengt]

Loser declares triggers first during step 4.

A trigger without a specific timing is resolved immediately, i.e. during step 4. 

All "after" triggers happen at the same time, "after damaging" is not before "after succeeding" as your chart implies.

Whether a model dies or not does not affect when a trigger happens (though obviously some triggers only goes in effect if a model died or was about to die).

Succeeding and failing will mean different things for each player so putting them in different places in the chart without specifying who is succeeding or failing is confusing.

[Kogan Style]

Thanks for this, I'll update the doc accordingly. I can see where the confusion from the implication of damaging before succeeding triggers comes from.

Wouldn't resolution of Step 5 stop some after succeeding triggers being applied? To use the Lynch example above, or giving poison to a model? You would remove the model if killed at this point. After damaging triggers would be resolved first in this case as the wording specifically states this. 

 

[solkan]

Your chart is wrong concerning models killed during Step 5.

A model killed during Step 5 is removed during Step 5 (and thus has all of the effects related to its death resolved) unless an 'After damaging' trigger has been declared and it's the target of the attack.  According to the FAQ, an 'After damaging' trigger for an attack that kills its target doesn't change when the trigger is resolved, it only delays removal of the model until after the trigger is resolved.

And your third box is conflating or confusing the timing issues people are likely to encounter.  For simultaneous events, if everything capable of happening was happening, the sequence would be:

1. Defender trigger.
2. Attacker trigger.
3. Attacker ability.
4. Defender ability.
5. Other First player ability.
6. Other Second player ability.

So you can't write "abilities/triggers are resolved" followed by a one line "X goes first".

But this sequence is only used to determine the order to evaluate simultaneous events.  

For example, if an attack is declared with an 'After damaging' trigger against a model with Black Blood, Black Blood is going to resolve during the damage application during Step 5, then the 'After damaging' trigger resolves in After Step Five.