Build-a-Minion (Yakuza/Triads)

[Douglas Scoundrels]

Hey folks! I need some community feedback for my next podcast episode.

 

We do a segment where we come up with ideas for new models with restrictions placed on ourselves by other hosts. We also come up with a restriction for the community to build a model around. The plan is to eventually do a model for each station and faction combination in the game.

 

This time, we're doing a 10 Thunders minion. The restriction we came up with for the community was that it had to be themed around the Yakuza or Triads in some way. The thunders remind us alot of the mafia in Malifaux, but the current model selection focuses primarily on Asia's more fantastical and feudal themes (Those that aren't borrowed from other factions, anyways). We'd like to see a more overt nod to the more famous organized crime groups of the East.

 

You can flesh out the model as much as you wish. It can be as simple as a few concepts for actions, or as complicated as filling out an entire card. We'll go through as many here as we can, and I'll post a link to the episode when it goes up.

Thanks a bunch for your help.

[Valgaav]

I don't have many ideas, but I'm definitely seeing something Darkened that is actually Oriental in flavour.  Something to make Jakob Lynch a little more Ten Thunders, instead of 'a guy who happens to owe the 10T money'.  Fluff it as someone who works in the Honeypot to keep an eye on one of their biggest moneymakers?

[Eclipse]

I second what @Valgaav said above: A 10T Darkened model. In addition, if that should be a Yakuza-like model, then how about something like this?

While Jacob Lynch was expanding his influence on behalf of the Hungering Darkness and the Ten Thunders he required capable handlers to aid in his various activities.
What he needed was people capable of working in the casino as bodyguards that were also knowledgeable about gambling games.
At the same time, he needed reliable mules and runners to establish a wider network of distribution of illegal goods, soulstones and eventually - Brilliance.
The perfect fit for this were the Triad members that migrated to The Other Side from the Three Kingdoms, posing as 'immigrants' among the crowds of Eastern refugees.
Skilled with both easy to conceal melee weapons and light firearms, addicted to gambling and opium since young age, experienced with running black market goods on the fringes of society and sometimes even under the nose of authority: The Triads are ready to settle in the Honeypot casino and collect some Debts.

Triad Ganger - 5ss
Darkened
Df 5 Wp 5 Wd6 Wk5 Ch7 Ht2

Illegal Dealings - Once per turn this model may discard two cards to gain one Soulstone.
The House Wins - When tied in a duel as defender, consider this model as the winner. When tied in a duel as attacker, consider this model's damage flip as  instead of .

Gang Weapons Ml5 2 2/3/4; Twist the Blade - get a  to damage
Illegal SMG Sh5  1/2/4;  Dual Wield - the damage track becomes 1/2/4

(0) Debts Must Be Paid Ca6/ Rst. Wp/ Tn. 10 - This model may take 1 damage to look at the top two card of your opponent's deck and place them on top or bottom of the deck one at a time in any order.

[Carecalmo]

Isn't the Triad theme already covered by the Ten Thunders Brothers? These anonymous demon-faced killers with wicked weapons that can become regular citizens at the drop of a hat (well, mask)?
I feel like the suited mafioso/yakuza is a bit too modern for the tone of Malifaux.

EDIT: I just reread your first post and I don't know how well the blurb below fits. Feel free to disregard.

My version of a Ten Thunders Darkened minion would be something that played on the opium den theme that Lynch almost has.

Something like a Hungering Alchemist, perhaps:

When the Ten Thunders first learned about the power of the Honeypot's Brilliance drug, they wished to manipulate it and take it for themselves. Luring alchemists and practitioners of Eastern medicine with promises of gold and the secret to immortality, the Thunders hoped to become able to manipulate the Hungering Darkness through manipulation of its Brilliance. They never expected that the wise men and women would be corrupted so fast by the Darkness' influence, nor how twisted they would become.

Now these venerable elders walk the streets of the Little Kingdom at night, smoking pipes that blanket the city in a heavy, heady fog that seems to sap the will of anyone in it. Their potions and elixirs, strung along belts and ropes, clink against each other. Once supremely helpful and a boon to all who came to them, these concoctions are now as twisted by Brilliance as the alchemists themselves.

A single drop of one their potions, a single stick of incense burnt in your home, and you will find yourself coming back to the decrepit old man with those strangely bright eyes you bought it from. Now, where did you meet him? Somewhere near the Honeypot..

 

I have no idea how it should work mechanically.  

[Douglas Scoundrels]

Looks like we'll be recording soon. I figured I'd bump this just once to see if we can get a few more replies.

[horvagab]

How about a Black Sheep and Lost Blossom 10T model? Had an idea for errant sons and daughters of the noble samurai, who have gone down the wrong path from the Three Kingdoms, and ended up as pawns for the Ten Thunders. Hell, you can throw Darkened and Brilliance in there if they became addicted to the stuff in Malifaux. Not sure what would be good stats for them though.

[Tawg]

14 minutes ago, Kaiser Senpai said:

Looks like we'll be recording soon. I figured I'd bump this just once to see if we can get a few more replies.

Well, to be honestly, my favorite part about the Magic: The Gathering forums were the Make Your Own Card subforum

I haven't seen this sooner, or I'd probably have already wasted time making something up, but I can give it a go pretty quick right now.

 

So, for starters, I just want to point out that there is a slight misconception displayed here with the concept of Yakuza.  The current 10T actually display quite a bit of similarity to the Yakuza, especially in the leadership being called the Oyabun and their clearly illicit activities.  The first thought that comes to mind when I think between Yakuza and the 10T is actually the Thunder Bros, because I feel they represent the Yakuza quite a bit with additional flavor of martial schools themed after animals, kind of a smash-up of ideas like you mentioned.  But the thing is that the Yakuza in general are a much older organization, which places them in more feudal times of origin, and their original goals were very similar to the back-ground "10T" going ons, such as gambling or fencing illegal goods.  I can quite imagine the 10T peddling cheap or knock-off soulstones in Malifaux (Or Earth side even), much like the Yakuza would in a similar situation.  The Yakuza also have very strong loyalty style beliefs, something we can see very clearly in even the Katanaka Snipers, whom all cut out their tongues so they may not be forced into revealing secrets, and other such examples.  All I'm really saying is, I think the Yakuza are very well represented in the fantastical culture of the 10T, despite other more fantasy-oriented ques being a big part of them.

 

The big difference is, I feel, that you're looking for pop-culture (Our pop culture, not Malifaux pop-culture) image of Yakuza.  Such as men in suits with tattoos just visible at the cuff of their sleeve (But you know it covers their entire body, if they've been around long enough), swords and often compact guns.  Maybe you're looking for something else, but in general I think much of the 10T as is encompass the "criminal element" of such gangs.

 

Either way,

Shatei    5 Soulstones

Minion, Living

Darkened, Bakuto

Df 5  Wp 6  Wds 6  Wk 5  Cg 7  Ht 2

Yubitsume - When an enemy model in 8 takes an Action which discards a Scheme Marker friendly to this model, this model suffers 1 damage.

 

(1) Wakizashi (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: 1" ):  Target suffers 2/2/3 damage.  If this model has 3 Wds or less, this Attack receives .

    Practiced Precision:  This Attack ignores Armor.

(1) Quick Hand (Ca 6 / Rst: Wp / Rg: 8"):  The winner of this duel may discard an opposing Scheme Marker within 9" or place a friendly Scheme Marker within 3".

   Wheedle:  After succeeding, this model may remove a friendly Scheme Marker within 3".  If it does, the target gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: "Under the Influence:  This model has the Brilliance Characteristic."

 

(0) Ya-ku-za:  You may reveal your hand.  If you reveal exactly an 8, 9 and 3, discard your hand and draw six cards.

 

 

 

Whatever, the general concept is there.  I imagine it's generally a scheme runner style model, and it's Quick Hand grants it an improved chance to land Scheme Markers as well as denying opposing crews their Markers.  However, the double-edged sword is that it opens the chance for the opponent to remove a Scheme Marker as well with failure, and Yubitusme means the lowly Yakuza will be paying the price (in fingers) to their boss.  Likewise, the Yubitsume rite is meant, traditionally, as a means to weaken the ability to wield one's sword, which feeds into the Wakizashi's once they lose "3 fingers".  Wheedle just connects them more to the Darkened theme of Lynch, and potentially a Bakuto (A type of Yakuza, typically involved in gambling, like Lynch) type could expand more towards the 10T than always using Darkened.  Ya-ku-za is also the namesake of the challenge and where they get the idea, from a game where the three cards 8, 9, 3 results in a 0 score.  It might not be too bad of a hand in Malifaux, but the potential to draw 6 cards if you have that exact combination seems decent enough and I doubt it's too powerful, it's more for the flavor of it anyways.  It's also probably not written in an exactly rules-lawyer turn of phrase, but I think everything on there still is understandable at least

[Douglas Scoundrels]

7 hours ago, Tawg said:

The big difference is, I feel, that you're looking for pop-culture (Our pop culture, not Malifaux pop-culture) image of Yakuza. 

Yeah basically. I sort of alluded to this in my first post but I realize I wasn't specific enough. I wasn't necessarily looking for a direct stereotype, just something that displayed more "organized crime" less "violent crime". I like how some folks went the route of giving J. Lynch a few human lackeys (non-addicts) to boss around. He might be the most appropriate Master to theme  this model around.

[hydranixx]

17 hours ago, Tawg said:

Shatei    5 Soulstones

Minion, Living

Darkened, Bakuto

Df 5  Wp 6  Wds 6  Wk 5  Cg 7  Ht 2

Yubitsume - When an enemy model in 8 takes an Action which discards a Scheme Marker friendly to this model, this model suffers 1 damage.

 

(1) Wakizashi (Ml 5 / Rst: Df / Rg: 1" ):  Target suffers 2/2/3 damage.  If this model has 3 Wds or less, this Attack receives .

    Practiced Precision:  This Attack ignores Armor.

(1) Quick Hand (Ca 6 / Rst: Wp / Rg: 8"):  The winner of this duel may discard an opposing Scheme Marker within 9" or place a friendly Scheme Marker within 3".

   Wheedle:  After succeeding, this model may remove a friendly Scheme Marker within 3".  If it does, the target gains the following Condition until the end of the Turn: "Under the Influence:  This model has the Brilliance Characteristic."

 

(0) Ya-ku-za:  You may reveal your hand.  If you reveal exactly an 8, 9 and 3, discard your hand and draw six cards.

I'm a fan; very flavourful and well explained. I think you've done a good job capturing how some of the elements within the group interact with one another. I really like the 'losing fingers for failure' idea haha.

One qualm I do have is that the model seems a little too weak for his 5ss investment*. I understand that he hinders himself to stay true to the real deal and to balance out his value in manipulation, but I think he's hindering himself too much, or perhaps not getting enough quite enough reward for the risk he takes.

Quick Hand could cost you the game. That's a risk you take with gambling, and that's fine with this subtheme. But with enemies having access to things like Obey about... That's really risky and it makes me consider a more reliable or cheaper scheme runner instead.

*If you intended that he can cast Quick Hand on friendly models, then this guy goes from "meh" to "wow, you have my attention now". I'd humbly suggest that Quick Hand include a stipulation in it such as "The winner of the duel may discard a scheme marker friendly to the loser of the duel", so that you can't obnoxiously target your own models to snipe enemy scheme markers, or failing that, if you intended that you can indeed machine gun down their scheme markers by dueling your own models, reduce the range or give it a TN so that it isn't so easy to do.

Perhaps you might consider giving him another ability on the front of his card; there's very few models that have only 1 ability on the front. I could see some kind of mini Chatty aura (3" maybe) helping him to deny schemes, without being over the top. You could also opt for Ruthless. I think Ruthless would fit him nicely as well, again without being over the top.

For his 0, I feel like more card manipulation is good and thematic, but the idea of trading 3 cards for 6, could prove much too powerful. None of those cards are severes, so that trade is almost always going to be worth it. I would honestly auto include this guy and consider stoning every turn to unlock that mid turn new hand. Nasty.

Perhaps, trade the 8/9/3 for 3 cards, with the potential for a 4th card based on the suits present, rather than 6 cards outright. Perhaps if all 3 cards are different suits from each other, you get the 4th card, etc. That's still an attractive option, but at least this way you're not doubling your control hand for free.

Just some food for thought. I really like the concept you've developed!

[Tawg]

3 hours ago, hydranixx said:

I'm a fan; very flavourful and well explained. I think you've done a good job capturing how some of the elements within the group interact with one another. I really like the 'losing fingers for failure' idea haha.

One qualm I do have is that the model seems a little too weak for his 5ss investment*. I understand that he hinders himself to stay true to the real deal and to balance out his value in manipulation, but I think he's hindering himself too much, or perhaps not getting enough quite enough reward for the risk he takes.

Yeah, I thought it was weak as well, but many models gain strength by synergy (Brilliance or any Bakuto interactions potentially), so I wasn't terribly offended.  His base stats are at least on par, and I wanted the Wakizashi to be strictly worse than the Dai Katana on the Ronin cards because well, Wakizashi are smaller swords essentially.  Of course, granting the Wakizashi was motivated by the fact that early "yakuza" had been granted the "honor" of wielding short blades in a time when only Samurai had them, and having a full length blade demanded respect.  The negative tied to that was really just a flavorful turn to go with the Yubitsume, since that really was a focal point for the concept;  Originally it was Ml 6, and Quick Hand was Ca 5, but I matched them to their respective defenses (Df // Wp respectively).  The Defense I didn't want too over the top, 5 is decent, and the higher Wp was to represent that, despite being a criminal element, the Yakuza display strength of will in their actions, whether it be supporting the needy during disasters or in their strict codes of honor.

But I certainly agree it was a weaker model to start off with.

3 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Quick Hand could cost you the game. That's a risk you take with gambling, and that's fine with this subtheme. But with enemies having access to things like Obey about... That's really risky and it makes me consider a more reliable or cheaper scheme runner instead.

*If you intended that he can cast Quick Hand on friendly models, then this guy goes from "meh" to "wow, you have my attention now". I'd humbly suggest that Quick Hand include a stipulation in it such as "The winner of the duel may discard a scheme marker friendly to the loser of the duel", so that you can't obnoxiously target your own models to snipe enemy scheme markers, or failing that, if you intended that you can indeed machine gun down their scheme markers by dueling your own models, reduce the range or give it a TN so that it isn't so easy to do.

That was unintended, and I would try to change that in retrospect.  However I am in favor of elegant design, and at a certain point the phrasing becomes cumbersome, so I might decide to rework that Ability all together if I didn't think it flowed well enough.  For instance, the "Within 9" and "Within 3" both could be confused for within X" of the target, or the model?  So I could see that being something to work around.  Although I will say that the Range was 9", the distance to discard a token 8" and the distance to place a token 3" to repeat the 9-8-3 theme subtly.  It's the only reason I used an odd number for a range in the first place

I wouldn't favor a TN though for that Ability.  If anything I think a targeting restriction might be the quickest method of clearing up that Action, just say "Target an enemy model." or something similar at the start.

3 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Perhaps you might consider giving him another ability on the front of his card; there's very few models that have only 1 ability on the front. I could see some kind of mini Chatty aura (3" maybe) helping him to deny schemes, without being over the top. You could also opt for Ruthless. I think Ruthless would fit him nicely as well, again without being over the top.

Honestly I did consider it, because I also felt like the front of the card was a bit lacking.  But within the domain of the ideas I had floating around, the ones I wanted to convey were more "Action" oriented, though certainly he could benefit from alternative front options.  Honestly, rather than a trigger, Wheedle would make a good Ability, simply allowing him to remove Scheme Markers after successfully resolving any duel, and then he could also "Force product" onto victims while cutting them with his sword if he had set it up.  I wouldn't mind that at all actually.

4 hours ago, hydranixx said:

For his 0, I feel like more card manipulation is good and thematic, but the idea of trading 3 cards for 6, could prove much too powerful. None of those cards are severes, so that trade is almost always going to be worth it. I would honestly auto include this guy and consider stoning every turn to unlock that mid turn new hand. Nasty.

Perhaps, trade the 8/9/3 for 3 cards, with the potential for a 4th card based on the suits present, rather than 6 cards outright. Perhaps if all 3 cards are different suits from each other, you get the 4th card, etc. That's still an attractive option, but at least this way you're not doubling your control hand for free.

Yeah, I was on the fence with this as well.  6 cards seems very powerful, and while 9 and 8 are not face cards, 9 and 8 are enough to stop attacks often enough, and while drawing 6 will never be straight up bad (If they're all low cards, at least they're not being flipped!), I thought 4 was too little, and I.. didn't like the number 5 lol.  I'd have to play a game or two to see how often he was able to utilize this Ability, but I agree it's potentially his most powerful Action.  It's like a supped up Mulligan from Lynch, but with specific requirements.  I also, DID, specifically make this Action a reveal rather than discard up-front, because of my consideration of Obey, for the record   I'd be willing to at least try this guy at draw 6 before crying wolf though, if I were making this model   I personally think hand pressure (And requiring exactly 3 cards in hand) are enough to stymie it's abuse.  Although it is also not good if it's too powerful when it does go off, so it may well be as you say, and need a bit of changing

 

Either way, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

4 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Just some food for thought. I really like the concept you've developed!

I appreciate the comments   I really wish these forums had more "Build your own" style threads or.. a section.  Playing games is definitively fun, but I also quite enjoy the creation aspect as well, and coming up with neat ideas is certainly a blast.

[hydranixx]

1 hour ago, Tawg said:

Yeah, I thought it was weak as well, but many models gain strength by synergy (Brilliance or any Bakuto interactions potentially), so I wasn't terribly offended.  His base stats are at least on par, and I wanted the Wakizashi to be strictly worse than the Dai Katana on the Ronin cards because well, Wakizashi are smaller swords essentially.  Of course, granting the Wakizashi was motivated by the fact that early "yakuza" had been granted the "honor" of wielding short blades in a time when only Samurai had them, and having a full length blade demanded respect.  The negative tied to that was really just a flavorful turn to go with the Yubitsume, since that really was a focal point for the concept;  Originally it was Ml 6, and Quick Hand was Ca 5, but I matched them to their respective defenses (Df // Wp respectively).  The Defense I didn't want too over the top, 5 is decent, and the higher Wp was to represent that, despite being a criminal element, the Yakuza display strength of will in their actions, whether it be supporting the needy during disasters or in their strict codes of honor.

But I certainly agree it was a weaker model to start off with.

That was unintended, and I would try to change that in retrospect.  However I am in favor of elegant design, and at a certain point the phrasing becomes cumbersome, so I might decide to rework that Ability all together if I didn't think it flowed well enough.  For instance, the "Within 9" and "Within 3" both could be confused for within X" of the target, or the model?  So I could see that being something to work around.  Although I will say that the Range was 9", the distance to discard a token 8" and the distance to place a token 3" to repeat the 9-8-3 theme subtly.  It's the only reason I used an odd number for a range in the first place

I wouldn't favor a TN though for that Ability.  If anything I think a targeting restriction might be the quickest method of clearing up that Action, just say "Target an enemy model." or something similar at the start.

Honestly I did consider it, because I also felt like the front of the card was a bit lacking.  But within the domain of the ideas I had floating around, the ones I wanted to convey were more "Action" oriented, though certainly he could benefit from alternative front options.  Honestly, rather than a trigger, Wheedle would make a good Ability, simply allowing him to remove Scheme Markers after successfully resolving any duel, and then he could also "Force product" onto victims while cutting them with his sword if he had set it up.  I wouldn't mind that at all actually.

I agree, and I fully get why you've made his attack underwhelming. As I say, I really like the synergy between loss of wounds and his attack action, and it's perfectly fine if the rest of the card supplements him. I too prefer rules that are more elegantly and clearly worded. My suggestion was not a final wording, just pointing you in the right intention.

I feel like there does need at least one extra 'something' on the front, even if it's at the cost of his stats a little. I do like the idea you've pondered - Wheedle being an automatic ability rather than a trigger to his spell. You could tinker with Wheedle's specifics a little bit until you're happy with it's balance, but I think it definitely has a place as an ability.

1 hour ago, Tawg said:

Yeah, I was on the fence with this as well.  6 cards seems very powerful, and while 9 and 8 are not face cards, 9 and 8 are enough to stop attacks often enough, and while drawing 6 will never be straight up bad (If they're all low cards, at least they're not being flipped!), I thought 4 was too little, and I.. didn't like the number 5 lol.  I'd have to play a game or two to see how often he was able to utilize this Ability, but I agree it's potentially his most powerful Action.  It's like a supped up Mulligan from Lynch, but with specific requirements.  I also, DID, specifically make this Action a reveal rather than discard up-front, because of my consideration of Obey, for the record   I'd be willing to at least try this guy at draw 6 before crying wolf though, if I were making this model   I personally think hand pressure (And requiring exactly 3 cards in hand) are enough to stymie it's abuse.  Although it is also not good if it's too powerful when it does go off, so it may well be as you say, and need a bit of changing

Maybe I'm thinking too highly of it, but I genuinely believe that the current iteration of the 0 seems like it's very, very powerful. Oppressively powerful. Yes, the criteria to meet is fairly demanding, but what it does is instantly make any hand containing 2 or 3 of those cards a really good hand, regardless of the rest of the cards in it, especially since you have the option of stoning for more cards, Stitched's Game of Chance, Lynch's Mulligan etc or worst comes to worst, holding onto two of those cards for next turn to fish for the third.

If you do have those 3 winning numbers, which I don't believe is nearly as rare as one might think with the card manipulation I mentioned above, you can play aggressively early in the turn with your good card(s) of 10's or higher to win important duels and meet TNs, while holding onto your other cards for your opponent's discard effects if they have any. If they don't have any, it's even better for you as you get to happily cheat against your opponent duels/rapid fire/flurry/defensive stance/implacable assault etc with your non 9/8/3 cards to eat your hand down to exactly those 3 cards and then cash them in for a brand new hand. Models with Accomplice would be really awesome with this guy. Imagine a hand with 9,8,6,3,2,1. That's a fantastic hand if you're running something with Accomplice (effigy?) and the Shatei and you can easily perform meaningless duels/defence stance to ensure you're getting those 3 winning numbers, then have Shatei activate and secure you a brand new hand.

You could try it at 6 cards, but I think it's still over the top. If you get it even once in 10 games, your opponent will turn sour very quickly. If you get it off, you basically control duels for the rest of that turn, and can even potentially build a control hand to do it against next turn. If you managed to successfully cast it twice per game, I don't see how you'd lose that game, to be honest.

I would be more inclined to have it count as a (1) action, stipulating that it can only ever be used once per turn, starting with a base draw of 3 or maybe 4 cards, with 1 additional card added if you meet some type of suit criteria and maybe 1 additional card added by electing to lose 1 wound on the model/sacrifice a scheme marker/discard a card once the action is complete etc.

1 hour ago, Tawg said:

I really wish these forums had more "Build your own" style threads or.. a section.  Playing games is definitively fun, but I also quite enjoy the creation aspect as well, and coming up with neat ideas is certainly a blast.

I know right? It really appeals to me as well. I look forward to any other designs you might have come up with

[Douglas Scoundrels]

Thanks for everyone's input. The podcast episode is finally out (Episode 7). Wish we could have spent a little more time on the subject but recording ran late and long.