Challenge your beliefs: Izamu.

[Bengt]

Are things that disregard armour (explicitly ignore it, thousand cuts, really big hits, etc) really all that more common than things that doesn't care about Impossible to Wound (burning, flat damage without a flip, , good weak damage, etc)?

[nunorod]

I really don't have much experience and i'm quite the noob. Never tried Rogue or, Rider, or carrion. but regarding Izamu... I also don't feel that he really is that big of a monster. If the opponent gives him enough attention he is quite brittle. My opponents do fear him so the psych factor helps, at least while the meta and community is very small, but I don't feel him to be THAT kind of a beast. BUT I do love the synergy he has with Kirai and I would even use him as a bomb with Tara. With those masters MOV 4 is not really a problem and the 3 reach is awesome, so he does beat hard, at least by Resser standards (with a min 3), and he holds schemes and enemy models just fine. He serves more than 1 purpose and being spirit and undead makes it useful for Kirai or Molly shenanigans. 

But you have to admit that the cool factor is much taken in account

 

[crimzzen]

Eh another point in Izamu's favour for me is that he looks 100x better than the rogue necro.  I find RN to be such an uninspiring pose, they could have done so much with that model.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Ant, could you discuss why you don't mention a few things in relation to Izamu and the Rogue Necromancy?

Izamu holding up enemies, do you really find that works? Killy models I find are generally there to Kill Izamu, and your argument is that he isn't hard to kill, so why would they want to get away from him? Generally good Scheme runners don't care about Disengaging strikes, because they have a movement trick that just let's them leave without provoking one, or they have abilities that will let them interact even though engaged by Izamu, or their crew has movement tricks that that will let them reposition Izamu or their own model. I've had some luck with occasionally tying up a model, but generally the free ability to move around in his massive Ml range coupled with all the other points I mentioned means at least I personally have never really been able to dictate the enemy's position with Izamu, other than forcing them to react to him. He might as well not have had the bonus to ML and positive to disengaging strikes for all the use they've ever been.

You mention the effectiveness in combat and give the edge to the Rogue Necromancy, and I wonder why you don't mention that that might be true, up until the Rogue necromancy takes a certain amount of wounds, in which case his combat effectiveness drops precipitously. Izamu is as effective in what he does at 1 wound remaining as he is at full wounds. The same cannot be said of the Rogue necromancy. Which leads into resilience, which again, I'm not really seeing your argument that the rogue necromancy is more resilient. Armor can be ignored, yes, and it is true that nothing ignores impossible to wound, but impossible to wound doesn't prevent dmg in my experience. Impossible to wound models, with the off the top of my head exception of Molly, tend to have terrible defense, just like the models with high armor, but the difference is that if you have high weak dmg, which tends to be exactly what is going to attack either of these models, than 2 high cards in hand will often translate into 2 hits, for two sources of weak dmg. If you aren't ignoring armor two weak hits against Izamu is laughable for the effect you get out of it, and two high cards will generally equal a single weak hit once you take into account the dmg reduction.

In my games, when I bring Izamu he has almost universally never gone down, and often rips through the enemy crew like a chainsaw through balsa wood. True I often have many of the support models you mention as being an addition to Izamu's cost, and a reason why you don't rate him as an effective cost to benefit ratio. But those model's were going in the crew whether I brought Izamu or not. If Datsue-Ba is in the list its not because she has guide spirits, that just tends to be incidental. If I bring Nurses or Summon Seishin to support him, or Belles to lure models to him (usually with Not Too Banged Up) those models were most likely going to be in the list no matter who the beater was, so I'm not seeing how they add to the cost of Izamu, but not to others.

When I bring the Rogue Necromancy he never does much because, again in my experience, he is neutralized so much more constantly than Izamu ever is. He is stupid easy to hit, can't prevent any dmg, and the instant he drops to a certain wound level his combat effectiveness drops significantly. Which, as an aside, I'd like to discuss your assertion that the Rogue Necromancy with a trigger has an effective min dmg 4. That's slightly disingenuous. If it was burning I might agree with you, though burning has the two disadvantages that it can be removed (albeit inefficiently with interact actions) and you have to wait like poison for the end of the turn for it to be effective. However only the first application of poison actually will really serve as that extra point of dmg. If I hit you twice and get poison +2 on you, I only get 1 of those dmg this turn, so it's more like with that trigger he has a min dmg of 3.5, not four, because most combats with non-SS users I find don't tend to last more than a round and a half. In my games at least it is exceptionally rare for models that are engaged one turn will still be engaged at the end of the next. One will generally either kill the other, or will get repositioned/Moved away.

On the Dead rider, I find it interesting that you denigrate Izamu for his speed, because without support he can't easily get where you want him, but have no problem saying the dead rider is better, even though you have to spend the first turn or two shepherding him so he isn't taken out before he actually gets his resilience going. How is shepherding a model for two turns and not using them to full effect from turn 1 better than being effective from turn 1, but being slow without support. There is a delay in utility in either case, and getting into position is more easily dealt with than having to step on egg shells until your skin gets thick enough to take a hit?

Please don't take any of this as combative, or saying you are wrong, as the conversation is interesting. For myself if I'm looking for a beater it depends on Synergies with the master. If I play Seamus, at least the way I generally play, and I need a beater it better have some way to cause a WP duel or synergize with them, so Izamu rarely makes an appearance. With Spirit Molly, my beater NEEDS to be a spirit for the ability to not get killed by my own black blood auras and so Molly can give it an extra AP when needed, so the Dear Rider and Rogue Necromancy need not apply. Horror Molly I tend to find prefers Killjoy, just for the flexibility of being able to easily get him anywhere I want on the board instantly. For other masters I could see some of your points, but not certain I fully agree.