Counter to Collodi's Stitched Madness

[FertileSpade]

I got worked over hard in a game against Collodi yesterday in which the Stitched were getting pushed by Marionettes (negating their slow Wk), activating, reactivating when i couldn't finish them off, healed by Wicked Dolls (negating their low Df and setting them up for a reactivation in the next game turn), and obeyed by Vasilisa as well as Collodi (with + flips reducing the odds to their favor) to Gamble Your Life again and again and again and again!! REALLY WYRD?! REALLY?! 6 pt models whose every weakness is negated by Collodi. That was fun!! 

After the urge to rage quit had passed, I began thinking of a possible counter to their ridiculous synergy. What I came up with is 

Ramos w/ Field Generator

Joss w/ Open Current

2 Gunsmiths

Johanna w/ Bleeding Edge Tech

Metal Gamin

3 Steam Arachnids

The idea is that Ramos will be able to summon and eventually win the AP contest. 3 killy models that can ignore Hard to Kill, Johanna's M&SU buffs (and Condition removal if Vasilisa gets cute) as well as Ramos' and Joss' upgrades to buff my crew while debuffing his. Interested in your thoughts and suggestions.

BTW tried Rasputina with December's Pawn card fishing tactic in my first game against Collodi = Complete waste of SS!

[Fog]

I wouldn't hire arachnids.  Use your points on something else that can't be summoned.  You've got twelve points in spiders and 4 in gamin that could instead be a mobile toolkit for your early scrap, a mechanical rider or howard langston, and imbued energies for joss.

Otherwise, the list isn't bad.  The low damage on the gunsmiths is mitigated by the generally low wounds on the enemy models you'll be facing.  Johanna has the heals and the hammer that works on EVERYTHING you're fighting.  

[FertileSpade]

maybe drop the arachnids for Howard? my only concern is allowing him to control activations early in the game. I went with a low model count in the Raspy crew for our first game and he was able to out position and maneuver me as a result.

[CanYaDigIT]

The question then becomes how does it stack up against another NB crew and what are the schemes and strats. It doesnt matter if you can kill everything if it is interference or recon with schemey schemes.

Coming up with a list to counteract a single other list is a lesson in futility in Malifaux. Sometimes you have to play your game and leave the enemy alone, or figure out the best way for you to get 10 and deny your opponent 1 VP so it would be a 10-9 game.

 

Malifaux can sometimes be a game where you are trying to hold off long enough that your opponent cant stop you from scoring even if you have no models left on the table at the end.

[FertileSpade]

i understand all of that. I think the Ramos crew would stack up well in most Neverborn matchups. What do you think about other matchups in Neverborn? It should perform well in most schemes and strats. The summoning mechanic is incredibly powerful in a game so dependent upon AP resource management.

The list is intended as a thought exercise in determining how to counter an incredibly powerful synergy outside of other game factors due to the fact that if half my crew is dead by the end of turn 2 scoring enough VP's to win will become an exercise in futility. 

If the Stitched were slow moving (normal Wk 4) than it would be easy enough to avoid them but they're not by a long shot! Anyway, the strat was Turf War so avoiding conflict in the center wasn't an option! The amount of AP the Collodi crew generated for a deadly model (the Stitched) was CRAZY and as I've said all the weaknesses of the Stitched are mitigated extremely well!

[CanYaDigIT]

The way to counter Ramos is to obey him and sacrifice him so the summoning mechanic isnt that good. With Collodi being able to be mobile keeping Ramos away would be hard. NB have tons of people with the ability to do that. Collodi is also able to waste AP on other models.

A Dreamer crew could summon better. Collodi can use the same resource as ramos to make summoning very tricky.

Try WP based duels against collodi or blasts.

[PeregrineFalcon]

i understand all of that. I think the Ramos crew would stack up well in most Neverborn matchups. What do you think about other matchups in Neverborn? It should perform well in most schemes and strats. The summoning mechanic is incredibly powerful in a game so dependent upon AP resource management.

The list is intended as a thought exercise in determining how to counter an incredibly powerful synergy outside of other game factors due to the fact that if half my crew is dead by the end of turn 2 scoring enough VP's to win will become an exercise in futility. 

If the Stitched were slow moving (normal Wk 4) than it would be easy enough to avoid them but they're not by a long shot! Anyway, the strat was Turf War so avoiding conflict in the center wasn't an option! The amount of AP the Collodi crew generated for a deadly model (the Stitched) was CRAZY and as I've said all the weaknesses of the Stitched are mitigated extremely well!

yes this is a well used group of models that work incredibly well together. The issue is that while you have models that can just delete about anything you need to 'feed' your opponent the models to delete. Also if you have any condition removal to your disposal you can remove things like fear not the sword (which heals when they do dmg).

In that setup you really need to focus on taking out the sticthed, I know its hard but you may want to consider something with a little range in your crews. Gamble your life has a pretty short range.

[FertileSpade]

i understand all of that. I think the Ramos crew would stack up well in most Neverborn matchups. What do you think about other matchups in Neverborn? It should perform well in most schemes and strats. The summoning mechanic is incredibly powerful in a game so dependent upon AP resource management.

The list is intended as a thought exercise in determining how to counter an incredibly powerful synergy outside of other game factors due to the fact that if half my crew is dead by the end of turn 2 scoring enough VP's to win will become an exercise in futility. 

If the Stitched were slow moving (normal Wk 4) than it would be easy enough to avoid them but they're not by a long shot! Anyway, the strat was Turf War so avoiding conflict in the center wasn't an option! The amount of AP the Collodi crew generated for a deadly model (the Stitched) was CRAZY and as I've said all the weaknesses of the Stitched are mitigated extremely well!

yes this is a well used group of models that work incredibly well together. The issue is that while you have models that can just delete about anything you need to 'feed' your opponent the models to delete. Also if you have any condition removal to your disposal you can remove things like fear not the sword (which heals when they do dmg).

In that setup you really need to focus on taking out the sticthed, I know its hard but you may want to consider something with a little range in your crews. Gamble your life has a pretty short range.

that was my initial thought: use Raspy to ranged attack the Stitched along with 2 December Acolytes' harpoon guns. However Raspy doesn't have the luxury of ignoring cover like Creepy Fog and by the end of turn 1 she had given a stitched the reactivate condition which it used in conjunction with pushes to get within 6" of an Acolyte and kill it like it was nothing. Oh and the Marionettes healed it so it was ready to do hard to kill/reactivate again in turn 2. Also, if Raspy's ice mirrors are engaged then she can't use them - a huge difference between her ability and the stitched which don't care about cover or engagement. It was an extremely frustrating game that really made me question this game's balance which before i had thought was very good. I am appreciative of evryone's help however, and would appreciate more.

[FertileSpade]

The way to counter Ramos is to obey him and sacrifice him so the summoning mechanic isnt that good. With Collodi being able to be mobile keeping Ramos away would be hard. NB have tons of people with the ability to do that. Collodi is also able to waste AP on other models.

A Dreamer crew could summon better. Collodi can use the same resource as ramos to make summoning very tricky.

Try WP based duels against collodi or blasts.

that's a nasty trick: uncontrolled detonation. who flips the cards for his Df duel and can it be cheated by the Ramos player?

[Shadowfane]

It's also a trick that's virtually impossible for a Collodi crew to pull off.

Obey specifies "Non-Master" (or non-Leader, can't remember which)

All fo Collodi's triggers that enable you to either take actions or use enemy AP also specify Non-Leader.

About the only person who can force Ramos to blow himself up is Marcus

[CanYaDigIT]

madam sybell can also do it.

[FertileSpade]

The way to counter Ramos is to obey him and sacrifice him so the summoning mechanic isnt that good. With Collodi being able to be mobile keeping Ramos away would be hard. NB have tons of people with the ability to do that. Collodi is also able to waste AP on other models.

A Dreamer crew could summon better. Collodi can use the same resource as ramos to make summoning very tricky.

Try WP based duels against collodi or blasts.

just thinking if Collodi can use Ramos' scrap markers then Ramos' could use Collodi's as well. Once the Stitched are gone, Collodi can't summon any more so I think Ramos is still a good matchup.

Edited October 28, 2015 by FertileSpade

[CanYaDigIT]

Maybe, but I am still skeptical of the list building in response to one game.

[Myyrä]

Maybe, but I am still skeptical of the list building in response to one game.

Actually, one game might be a good reason to revise your list. While it usually doesn't pay off to build a list to counter another one, it makes quite a lot of sense to devise lists that can handle a list you struggled against before.

Just remember:

[CanYaDigIT]

At least to do an AAR, after action review, to see what you could have done better with the choices you made and to see what units under performed and what units could take there place.

 

Whith a faction I am much more familar with, necropunks and crooligans. Both fill a scheme runner slot. One can deploy almost anywhere and one cant. Once can places scheme markers on turn one and one cannot. One costs 1 SS more. One is more resilient than the other. One can heal. They both have places in different lists, and playstyles. I prefer Necropunks in 9/10 games. I know ressers who prefer crooligans in 9/10 games. I have done my review of games to know that how I play and what I want to accomplish can be usually done by Necropunks.

[FertileSpade]

i have reviewed the game played and looked at areas I can improve on. In fact I mention one possibility in this thread that could have hurt me in the game: I chose a low model count crew and as a result I had to move important models before he did allowing him to outmaneuver my small crew. However, the only way I can get help from the forum (the original reason for the post) on an AAR as you describe it would be to write a full and elaborate battle report detailing positioning of all models turn by turn, cards in hand, cards flipped from deck, etc., etc.. not very realistic for a forum post. So instead, I gave a brief description of the problem I faced and a theoretical crew that I might play given the opportunity for a rematch in hopes of learning what might help me out.

[FertileSpade]

one thing I just noticed is that Open Current is a complete waste against a Collodi crew: all non-construct models.

[Fog]

I play Ramos into everything with a very elite crew (6 models including my scrap token) and I rarely have activation issues. Make your spiders, activate your spiders, send in the big boys after. Collodi may threaten activation order, but you should be able to control the reactivate at least. Imbued energies on a reactivated Joss can take two stiches off the board. Three hits from Langston will kill one dead without worry. Don't forget that Ramos has an accurate gun that can shoot into melee. 

Ramos can also keep defense duels up with arcing shield. That can help take the edge off. I also find it helps deal with the puppet swarm left behind. With their low attack they'll find it difficult to make things happen

[FertileSpade]

Thanks Fog! I really appreciate your help! Do you use Electric Summoning to bring in an electric creation turn 1 for your first scrap marker?

[Fog]

I typically hire one. He's a point more than a tool kit but I like having the option to magnetize for the extra movement first turn if I don't feel like I'll need the extra scrap. The four points are worth it for the extra upgrade slot. I tend to run with under pressure, arcing screen and arcane reservoir. Having the right cards is essential.

 

[paxmiles]

How come no Arcane Effigy? Seems like being able to remove conditions would be pretty useful here, even if it's a puppet.

Though, if running a M&SU master, like Ramos, wouldn't Johan be a really smart choice against an all construct enemy crew?

Beyond those, I'm a huge fan of using the Ice Golem to toss ht1 models at things. Those Steam Arachnids and Electric Creations are great models to collide with enemy models, plus a good number of those puppets are ht1.

[FertileSpade]

In my original theoretical list I had Johanna (but the Bleeding Edge Tech listed would not be legal - not sure what I was thinking there).

[Fog]

Why wouldn't BET be legal?  Isn't the requirement "M&SU?"

[FertileSpade]

Why wouldn't BET be legal?  Isn't the requirement "M&SU?"

actually, i think you're right. for a minute there i was thinking she/he wasn't an enforcer.

[FertileSpade]

we did a rematch yesterday, to see if there wasn't a way to counter Collodi and I won with Ramos 6 to 3. Squatter's Rights and I took Bodyguard (on Joss which was a mistake on my part) and Protect Territory.

my crew was Ramos w/ field generator

Joss w/ Bleeding Edge Tech

Johanna

2 Gunsmiths

3 Metal Gamin

?I think that's it?

The number of AP Collodi generates was still bonkers but I managed to take down his biggest threats (2 Stitched and a Coryphee) with Magnetism, Switch Chambers, & a Relic Hammer. The metal gamin were all stars. I'm not sure I would take 3 against a non construct crew (little metagaming going on) but I would take 2 going in blind just because for 4 pts they are so tough! Johanna can be difficult to get the most out of. I found myself wanting to use Open Revolt to heal all M&SU within 6" but at 2 AP she's no longer fulfilling other vital functions. I should have put Bodyguard on her instead of Joss who needed to up in the mix murdering fools instead of worrying about dieing! As a result I just couldn't hold him back any longer turn 4 and sent him in to kill Collodi (he failed. Ramos ended up getting him with Magnetism - so good!) and he died and I lost 3 VP because of it. great game and a lot learned! Collodi still irritates the snot out of me and I think he's a top tier Master because of the AP he generates but Ramos generates AP as well.