Is challenge the crowd an auto-include on Ironsides?

[Manic Mouse]

... because I can't imagine not taking it. The only reliable way to generate adrenaline is by being in combat with lots of models, but without "Challenge the Crowd" Toni will simply get lynched. The upgrade is basically necessary for her core mechanics to work without getting you killed, which is really kind of against the grain of upgrades being optional modifiers.

Unfortunately I didn't take much interest in Ironsides during the beta, but I would have suggested dropping the hard to kill from her card and replacing it with "Challenge the Crowd" (perhaps bumping her up to say 16 wounds).

[Fancy_Hat]

I highly recommend getting Ironsides on the table. She plays very differently than what her card makes you think. In a perfect setting Ironsides can put out a ton of hurt, in practice that almost never happens. Get adrenaline when you can, don't rely on it (note that the Adrenaline condition will be reduced by one and heal Ironsides one at the end of every turn, there is no "may" in this action, so even if Ironsides is at full health, there goes her Adrenaline, so trying to save up for one good round of butt-kicking is hard to do as well).

 

If you are intent on using Adrenaline then Frontline Leadership is the way to go. I recommend coupling this with Arcane Reservoir to mitigate the effects of having to discard cards. I quite honestly take Frontline Leadership for the (0) Action though, it's a really good one, and makes Ironsides one of the best board-control masters in the game when coupled with "You Lookin' at Me".

 

On the Challenge the Crowd front, I have taken it many times and wished I had given her any other upgrade, a simply Imbued Energies on her would have been better (Note with a cache of 5 I'm never really hurting on the stone front, so I always try to max out my model/upgrades spent). The problem with Challenge the Crowd is one of timing. If Ironsides is engaged with two models when she activates, she will kill one of them. That means she no longer gets the benefit from challenge the crowd. She could instead try to get more enemies near her during her activation, but Ironsides doesn't want too many enemies near her, as even with double positives, it'll only take so many tries to get her down. Also if she has activated already to bring those enemies closer then (a) they probably got a free hit off of the "You Lookin' at Me" action, which you want to try to minimize as much as possible and ( she's already activated, so even if she manages to get some Adrenaline out of it, it probably won't be enough, remember you will lose an adrenaline at the end of the turn and you also need to still hit your opponents and damage them to get your trggers off (be wary of soulstones users, preventing Ironsides' Brass Knuckles damage, especially those nasty neverborn leaders if they take their Aetheric Connections upgrade, can shut Ironsides down pretty hard).

 

Because of Ironsides', let's call it, unreliability as a combat master, she better fits a support/board control role. You Lookin at me is very powerful, notably so on friendly models, note the actions tells the target to make an Ml action. What if they have an Sh action that has a close combat range? They don't make the attack. This makes Oxfordian Mages, Gunsmiths (who can also choose to not relent and cheat in a rams to get their defensive trigger of gaining Fast), and the Mechanical Rider (who has a whopping charge of 10" and poops out M&SU constructs that start wounded for Quell the Riot to take effect immediately!) all are great choices for that action, but sometimes taking Johan's Relic Hammer to the face is the price Ironsides needs to pay in order to get the job done.

 

Wow, glancing back over this post I think I answered your question as well as a few (just a few) that you didn't ask. For now I'll leave you with one last word of advice is true for everything in Malifaux but, in my experience, rings exceptionally true for Ironsides. Play it on the table.

[Uktena]

Isnt she like Justice in that her job is to tie up enemy models and pulverize a few before dying so her crew can win the game? Extra Df flips are good, but I don't think she necessarily needs to survive if her crew wins. Or are you finding she dies without accomplishing this task?

[Manic Mouse]

I'm thinking that trying to get lots of people in combat with her and shooting in (randomising plus the positive flips Df means I'm not going to hurt toni) and use the oxfordian mages to sap ap from her opponent.

 

I've only played her once, just found that she died surprisingly easily when I tried to get her in combat with 2-3 people.

[The Godlyness]

Her most useful and best ability is giving all friendly Ms&u to attack and damage flips when wounded.

She is support plain and simple. To think other wise is wrong. So challenge the crowd is not auto include,But if you want her more combat orientated then Seize the day upgrade with challenge the crowd can work. Gives her a fighting chance to attack things first then run away with her (0)

[Manic Mouse]

Her most useful and best ability is giving all friendly Ms&u to attack and damage flips when wounded.

She is support plain and simple. To think other wise is wrong. So challenge the crowd is not auto include,But if you want her more combat orientated then Seize the day upgrade with challenge the crowd can work. Gives her a fighting chance to attack things first then run away with her (0)

 

Indeed - this is why I take 3 oxfordian mages and willie.  Wheelbarrow of doom the OM for 1 damage, use the OM (0) action to tickle willie for 1 damage - three paired 6 ranged beasts that either sap your AP with slow or make blasts.