Rankings 2015 idea

[mythicFOX]

Following some of the recent discussion on Twitter I wanted to propose an idea for the 2015 rankings. 

 

PLEASE READ MY WHOLE POST CAREFULLY BEFORE REPLYING

 

Whenever players play games together there is a social contract between them to play the game fairly and equitably. Concerns have been raise about the number of careless mistakes being made by some players, and that these are negatively impacting on the community as a whole.

 

I'll begin by saying I don't think we have a big problem with where we are today. It is more that I'm concerned we may be seeing signs of one beginning to develop. I'm also not aiming this post at any individual or individuals. What I'm proposing is to encourage tighter play and hopefully reduce the number of mistakes being made. 

 

I propose that as part of the rankings we introduce the concept of 'penalties'. It is VERY important for this idea that people think of these as being honest mistakes along the line of being caught LBW in Cricket or potting the white in a game of pool. It is envisaged all players from time to time may receive a penalty in this way.

 

I've been playing competitive Malifaux for many years and can think of a couple of occasions where I have made honest mistakes that would have lead to my receiving a penalty, and am comfortable with that.

 

A player receives a penalty where;

 

An error they have made in administering the game causes the result of a game to be altered, or their conduct is such that the TO has had to intervene.

 

Examples;

• A player has lost a card from their fate deck,
• A player fails to correctly record a scheme,
• A player illegally constructs their crew,
• Players return incorrectly completed score sheets,
• A player verbally abuses their opponent

 

Penalties accrue against a player's rankings record. Each penalty expires one year after the date it was received. A player's overall ranking is impacted by the total number of active penalties they have at any one time: 

 

1: No impact 

2: -50 rankings points 

3+: Suspended from the rankings

 

Note that none of the above covers deliberate cheating. An act of cheating would cause a player to be completely removed from the rankings for a minimum of one year.

 

I would encourage players to pass all concerns to the TO at events in a timely fashion. If you see something, say something.  I'd then further encourage TOs to pass on information of all penalties accrued along with the results of the event to the rankings.  It may not seem like a nice thing to do for what may have been a minor issue at your event, but it may in fact be part of a wider issue you're not aware of. 

 

Anyway that's my idea. Let me know what you think!

 

PS: I would be grateful if we could have this discussion without naming names or speculating about past events. That's not what this is about. 

 

- James

 

[ProximoCoal]

Doesn't sound like a bad idea, though 3 minor mistakes and being band could be pretty harsh. I am almost sorry I posted my blog post now, btw, it feels like this has gotten really out of hand

[ProximoCoal]

How about tournaments could not count towards your final ranking if there is a mistake?

[cdhay]

I agree James. However one thing I would like to see is the paperwork for events include crew rosters and areas to note down hidden schemes and naming targets etc. If this is introduced as the norm I would imagine it would reduce any errors and potential mistakes. Also it would make decision making clearer for TO's and not leave as much down to personal opinion. Sure it will be a bit more admin and time consuming for players but only minutes. I write all this information down anyway in my "Lego" notebook so from my point of view it wouldn't make any difference to what I do now.

another positive is that any of those that like stats could use the rosters for fun stuff like how many silurids for stake a claim etc

[cdhay]

I don't want the tournament scene to turn into a highly policed, tense place but hopefully if there are strict clear rules that everyone is aware of I think it will be good in the long run. Malifaux is exploding in popularity so surely if everything is as clear as possible for all aspects that can only be a good thing. Please please please whatever is decided I hope we don't put people off the game or make tournaments fall in popularity. I'm only just starting to get into the tournament scene and I think it only needs very minor tweaks and not a massive overhaul

[leebat]

i was going to add that more than 3 strikes need to be added 

 

 

1: No impact 

2: 1st Black Mark added like a faction badge 

3: 2nd Black Mark added = event not counted in Rankings

4: 3rd Black Mark added = event not counted in Rankings & -50 rankings points 

5: Suspended from the rankings

 

each Black Mark could be Valid for 3 months then drop off  but all modifiers and suspensions could last the whole masters session  

 

this is my idea of helping people who make mistakes and I've made a load before 

 

Lee

 

[ProximoCoal]

Personally I am kicking myself for ages after I make a mistake, so I'd like the opportunity to fess up and be punished.

 

BTW did I mention I went to a catholic primary school

[ProximoCoal]

I dislike the black mark system though. It's almost deciding that the person is a cheater and broadcasting 

[M_Ruckuss]

I would agree that we don’t have a big problem with this issue- it has  become more of a common occurrence, but I believe that this proposal will end up creating more problems that POTENTIALLY solve. 

 

A fair and equitable game is what players should be aspiring to. The definition of a mistake is “an act or judgement that is misguided or wrong”. Assuming a player is not cheating, an entirely separate issue, should a player be penalised for an “error, inaccuracy, blunder or miscalculation”. My answer is yes, to a degree. However, this needs to take place within the tournament. Players will be often be punished be the very nature of many of the mistake, or by the intervention of the TO, as evidenced at the GT.

 

I will not hide my own potential situation from the issue; rather I will use them as example. There are also many examples of mistakes made by my opponents, but I will largely stick to mine at this point out of respect). At three tournaments I have picked an ineligible scheme. Sounds ridiculous but there we go. In both games I accepted that I only had 7 available points to score, without even the intervention of a TO. I am sure Greg and Aiden Kirk will vouch for this. Greg even offered to allow me to try and score from the scheme I had clearly misunderstood-plant explosives should have spring the trap. He had said “well next turn you might be able to score it”. I replied “no, I declared an ineligible scheme- I only have a maximum of 7 points to score”. I believe the game ended 8-6, with all parties happy. Why penalise honest, gentlemanly conduct that can be solved civilly?! By suspending people from the rankings…?! This perplexes me no end…

We are humans, all of us, and are defined by our mistakes. What would constitute not “filling in a score sheet properly”- do we include spelling? Incorrect opponent’s master? A score for handwriting? The GT score sheet is an example of this (this is not meant is a disrespectful or critical way Mike-merely a way to point out that all of us, even the best, are prone to mistakes….! J). There was no space to put on the strat scores. All of the tournament sheets are different anyway- how can you enforce this with such a huge discrepancy…? One of my GT opponents accidently wrote the wrong score- 6-6 rather than 8-8 on their sheet. The TO’s has a laugh with us about this. If this had happened post event, should that individual have been penalised? I firmly believe not.

 

At the moment, the current model for the Malifaux GT scheme is that TO’s run tournaments, declare them as ranked (or not) and submit there scores to a central score system. Since the disbandment of rankings HQ, Mike Marshall has coordinated this fantastically. He has, in my opinion, served as an outstanding ambassador and co-ordinator for the Malifaux community, as has Dave Brown. In contrast, I find the notion of an individual or group sitting above the Malifaux community as arbitrators for mistakes uncomfortable, no matter who they are. This will cause a huge amount of unnecessary friction within our community. I also disagree with using the ranking portal as a way to publicly proclaim players making mistakes. Some players may be new, dyslexic, or simply not as efficient and precise as our more precise “betters”. I find the idea of penalising a new player for two mistakes hugely unappealing- it will serve only to curb the growth in our currently-flourishing community.

 

TO’s are there to co-ordinate each individual tournament. Gaining grounds, and thus Wyrd’s advice/stance state this. It is up to each TO to decide what happens in their own event. It says this in their rule packs….they are the SOLE AUTHORITY. It is up to them to adjudicate, not apply a non-contextual, generalise penalty system, particularly when so many positive examples of this/ without wishing to go into reams of detail, out of respect for the parties involved, two examples of the GT illustrate this. Whether or not individuals agreed with the decision, the GT TO made at least two tough calls. I commend him for this, as this is what TO’s should be doing-acting within their remit. My understanding is that on the most prominent of these two occurrences, all parties have acted with integrity and honour, and I salute them for doing so. If this type of adjudication can happen on the grandest stage of them all (at least within our community) it should be happening everywhere...

 

I agree that if deliberate abuse takes place, then sanctions are a good idea. However, how would you define this against banter, which may offend nearby player, and submit that, again, this can be dealt with in-house by the TO.

“Illegal crew construction” is also an ambiguous term, and can, again, be dealt with by the TO.

Rather than having an over-reaching penalty system, we just need to back our TO’s in the excellent job they are doing…When we sign up to any social activity we undertake there is a ‘social contract’- that is obvious. However, penalising players for mistakes just strikes me as a massive mistake in itself that will create the wrong ethos within our community… Do we need an FA or IRB equivalent handing out sanctions for accidental mistakes? I believe not……!

 

What we need to be making clear is that TO’s have the right to act as they see fit, in a fair and equitable way, and that if you make a mistake, deliberate or otherwise, the TA may see fit to issue a penalty. An example of this would be nullifying a scheme selection if it has been written down. Another might be to disqualify, reverse or modify scores. In short, by entering a tournament, accept that your mistakes may, within that tournament, cause you to incur sanctions.

 

[Please note that all references to people is to give examples. All are meant positively, and please PM me if you feel I have used your name is a negative way and I will amend my post- i am merely trying to stress that I feel players and TO's are acting with integrity and that a centralised sanction system is not needed....]

Edited November 16, 2014 by mythicFOX
Removed the huge font to aid reading.

[MariFaux]

I agree with everything said above.

 

I think a system that prevents mistakes in the first place, like encouraging opponents to add up soulstones before a game, writing schemes into a dedicated box, etc is better than punishing afterwards. 

[mythicFOX]

As a general point there is what I call the 'new player fallacy', the idea that having any kind of change is always challenged on the basis that it will be in some way off putting to new players, it's the 'think of the children' of Wargaming.  New players expect to make mistakes and a clear understanding of what is and isn't acceptable can only aid them.  

 

As I said from the beginning this isn't about labeling people cheats, this is about having a simple system for handling key infractions. Like LBW in cricket or off-side in football, technical breaches without excessive penalties attached.

 

I also agree better score sheets and more collaborative checking would help here.

 

@ Mcdoogle -  

 

The TO is the sole arbiter, they pass on the information into the rankings as they see fit.  There is no one sitting 'above the TO' making decisions.  Strong TO-ing is a big part of the solution to these issues. TOs however can only act to manage situations during an event. The concerns that have been raised are about a pattern of issues across multiple events which a single TO is powerless to deal with. 

 

This is about the rankings acting as a way to encourage the behaviors we want to see. Attending more events, and fair play. 

[ProximoCoal]

I agree with some of the above points. In my mind these were sort of a last resort thing, if things couldn't be solved by players or TOs or whatever. I have played the wrong scheme before did exactly the same, play 3 points down. It's if this doesn't work then we move on. It basically means there is a fall back rule for TOs to look to, like GG. Does this make sense?

[leebat]

I agree with everything said above.

 

I think a system that prevents mistakes in the first place, like encouraging opponents to add up soulstones before a game, writing schemes into a dedicated box, etc is better than punishing afterwards. 

 

it is indeed and everyone makes mistakes at times, as McDoogle kindly offered his up his they were all mistakes and not intended,  but as a TO i think there should be a guide line we can follow. 

[M_Ruckuss]

 

As I said from the beginning this isn't about labeling people cheats, this is about having a simple system for handling key infractions. Like LBW in cricket or off-side in football, technical breaches without excessive penalties attached.

 

I also agree better score sheets and more collaborative checking would help here.

 

@ Mcdoogle -  

 

The TO is the sole arbiter, they pass on the information into the rankings as they see fit.  There is no one sitting 'above the TO' making decisions.  Strong TO-ing is a big part of the solution to these issues. TOs however can only act to manage situations during an event. The concerns that have been raised are about a pattern of issues across multiple events which a single TO is powerless to deal with. 

 

This is about the rankings acting as a way to encourage the behaviors we want to see. Attending more events, and fair play. 

 

 

 

I feel that  disqualification and points discussions ARE excessive, more appropriate for deliberate mistakes; in leymans terms, cheating...I understand and agree with the motives and aim, but not with the proposed sanctions. Offside disallows a goal within a game. LBW declares ONE player within a team of 10 out, with the opportunity to continue to play still present. This is like a TO docking points are ruling within a game. The proposed sanctions are the equivalent to points deductions in a league table, or banning a team from the world cup (this has only happened over race issues in the world of cricket). 

 

If their are  pattern of issues with one player then TO's may indeed want or need another structure to aid them. But are we talking about ignorance or cheating, which I also know there have been accusations of....If the former, reporting all mistakes made and disqualifying people from ranking for mistakes.....? What about slow games that don't get past turn three and cost one player? (I am normally a quick player, but admit I was slow at one of my GT games, and one of my opponents half-jokingly said before another game we wouldn't get past turn three, and apologised in advance- ce la vie....its possibly even cost me 3 games in the past...) Would I 'report' the player that devoured my teddy with his Wendigo, an 'illegal' move he made by making a mistake when reading his card...? Of course not! All of these are caused by fallibility, which I do not believe deserve to be punished.

 

I also really don't see how these proposals would lead to "rankings acting as a way to encourage behaviours we want to see". Could you elaborate? As far as I can see the proposals serve only to punish honest mistakes. If what I understand from what Proximocoal wrote, he understood them as a fall-back option, a good concept to have, even more so with cheating. But even then, a TO's digression to report on mistakes after an event is too arbitrary- different TO's would report different infractions- it would be too inconsistent for my liking. And WHO would they be reporting to, WHO would be ruling on the infractions and WHO would administer the penalties- it has to be someone or a group of people; a body instituting penalties to players, and not even for the more serious issue of cheating, merely mistakes...

 

 

it is indeed and everyone makes mistakes at times, as McDoogle kindly offered his up his they were all mistakes and not intended,  but as a TO i think there should be a guide line we can follow. 

Agreed. a unified, agreed process for TO's to follow might help. i'm just don't agree with ranking points penalties and 'black dots' im afraid. 

 

edit: I also believe it is difficult to not bring up the prior issues that have lead to this thread: it would be like excluding all previous case law and statutes and examples when drafting a white paper.

[Dante83]

As a new player (I will be attending my first tournaments in 2015) I can say that the "new player fallacy" is not entirely a fallacy. This blacklisting/penalising makes me feel quite uncomfortable.

As a relatively new player I am assuming that I will make some mistakes (this is after all how we learn) but by this token if I make 3 in a year I will be suspended from the rankings.

Surely there is a better way to deal with mistakes "in tournament". For example if you record a scheme incorrectly, you don't score from the scheme. This penalises the player for the mistake without ostracising them for it.

Also, what happens to players who are removed from the rankings? How will ranked tournaments work if some players are ranked and others not? Will this mean if you make 3 mistakes you are no longer allowed to attend ranked tournaments? This seems a harsh penalty for making a few mistakes and will lead to a lot of ill feeling methinks.

One of the reasons I want to get into the tournament scene is that through forums, podcasts etc. it comes across as a really friendly scene, in my mind this seems contrary to the spirit of that.

Just my two cents

[M_Ruckuss]

One of the reasons I want to get into the tournament scene is that through forums, podcasts etc. it comes across as a really friendly scene, in my mind this seems contrary to the spirit of that.

Just my two cents

 

Dont worry, it is an amazing scence...! At the GT i played 4 players I know well and have played at least once before, and the fifth of my 6 oponents will be my best man next year. Its a great scene to get into, with honest, fun opponents and more banter than you can imagine 

[hrnyjackal]

I think this is more trying to set a precedent for large scale and repeated mistakes and I'm sure that both little and experience based mistakes will be looked at very differently.

The TOs have the discretion to report the mistakes and as the TO are just other guys from the theory sounds worst than the practice.

I think the key thing is people are looking to put structure into how these things should be dealt with instead of everyone in the dark.

[Dante83]

I am completely on board with having a set of guidelines in order to deal with certain situations that may arise out of the mistakes made. A TO "handbook" if you will

What I was saying is I just think potentially excluding people based on them making mistakes seems harsh, I agree with McDoodle that the kinds of punishment being talked about seem more in line with punishing cheating.

@mcdoodle - I have every faith that the scene is all it's cracked up to be That's why I don't want to be excluded for making mistakes!!

[M_Ruckuss]

@mcdoodle - I have every faith that the scene is all it's cracked up to be That's why I don't want to be excluded for making mistakes!!

I'd have been banned this year for only giving myself 7 available vp in 3 games, let alone the countless writing errors I make.....! Can't spell and usuall y forget to write in opponents master and table number-!

[mythicFOX]

Dont worry, it is an amazing scence...!

 

...

 

Its a great scene to get into, with honest, fun opponents and more banter than you can imagine  

 

On this at least we are in complete agreement.  I'm very much talking about preventing a problem developing, not a big problem we already have. The scene is a fantastic place. Don't let these discussions make you think any differently.

 

 

@ McDoougle -  You've argued that it should all be up to the TO to adjudicate, then when I pointed out there was TO discretion you switched to being concerned that this would lead to inconsistent rulings? You can't have it both ways.

 

 

The central criticism of the proposal seems to be we'll be hitting people for making small mistakes, which is absolutely not what I'm proposing. I'm talking about problems which caused a game to have to be ended by a TO ruling. Lets look at the numbers;

 

There were two games at the GT with situations sufficient to warrant reporting under the system I propose. As there were just under 200 games played at the GT by players of all levels we're talking about 1% of games resulting in an issue.  A really prolific tournament player will attend about 15 events a year with an average of 4 rounds each, and therefore play 60 competitive games. On that basis to receive any actual sanction (2 incidents in 12 months) even a prolific player would have to be making three times the average number of errors.  

 

The proposed system simply isn't going to punish people making occasional honest mistakes. Only people who're having so many issues we would need to take action.

 

That said it sounds like the idea is a non-starter for people and I'm happy to drop it.

[mythicFOX]

I think this is more trying to set a precedent for large scale and repeated mistakes and I'm sure that both little and experience based mistakes will be looked at very differently.

The TOs have the discretion to report the mistakes and as the TO are just other guys from the theory sounds worst than the practice.

I think the key thing is people are looking to put structure into how these things should be dealt with instead of everyone in the dark.

 

This, very much this.

[M_Ruckuss]

@ McDoougle -  You've argued that it should all be up to the TO to adjudicate, then when I pointed out there was TO discretion you switched to being concerned that this would lead to inconsistent rulings? You can't have it both ways.

I'm talking about problems which caused a game to have to be ended by a TO ruling.it.

i) yes I can- TO discretion is fine within individual tournaments. I am talking about the fact if 20 TO's report to Rankings Big Brother they will report different levels of infraction and thus create inconsistencies.

ii) if a game has been ended by a TO ruling why should it HAVE to be reported , if all parties have acted honourably....?

[Psientologist]

I have tried to keep away from this topic, but as a surprise to no one I cannot keep my mouth shut for long.

 

Quite a lot of the ideas James has put forwards have merit but equally Mark has also made some good points (just with far too many ellipsis).

 

"The TO's ruling is final" is something I'm sure we can all agree on which should not and really cannot change.

Reporting suspicious players is something that can be done, but we do not need some outside TO Illuminati to deal with it.

 

Good communication via common TOs is important though and if suspicions are made there should be ways of passing this information about, private forum, email chain whatever. If a player is suspicious, noted by players for something "dodgy" these things should be noted, if multiple players and organisers see "repeat offense" then moves need to be made.

 

Black marks will just scare people off.

Already there is talk of "but I make mistakes", I do not want to delve deep into how cheating is not the same as a mistake.

Cheating is a "Mistake made on purpose" which in itself is an oxymoron and repetition of the same mistake is where you will catch people out.

Again, communication is key.

 

Cutting, better designed sheets for recording schemes etc. are all good precautions which everyone should adapt and the one tiny thing I am happy about coming from all this is that I think people will start to do that little bit more to help protect.

 

Also, possibly something people will argue against me with but "mistakes" on the top tables later into the tournament are worse than near the bottom.

I am not for a second saying people can cheat at the bottom who cares, no one should cheat ever.

However top tables players "should know better" it might sound cheesy but is true, if this is not their first rodeo sloppy play should be less forgivable.

 

To compare this to Magic: The Gathering (yes, groan, this isn't magic etc.) higher level events have a higher REL (Rules Enforcement Level) and I believe it is just logical to look at top tables like this.

 

Also continuing the MtG comparison, what people seem to be suggesting is TO's like magic judges where they report to a body etc.

If the scene was 100* as big I would agree, currently it is unnecessary but some of it can be taken.

 

Again, communication between TOs.

 

Dealing with mistakes/cheating in a  similar fashion. Take note that the player didn't declare his in built critical strike, do not put a mark on their name or tell the other TOs.

If that is all, bin the note, or forget it if it was mental.

Happens 3/4 rounds, make a physical note, pass the info on.

Someone is reported having the RJ in hand nearly every turn, watch them, take note on their hands through out the tournament, if you don't see it don't worry, you do, take note report and see if they are suspiciously shuffling etc.

 

If the mistakes are simply fixed and done in friendly manner like Mark is saying, then that is dealt with.

You have the same "mistake" come up with that player again, that is when report is needed.

 

At the end of the day there is very little of any  cheating going on and I still stand by the fact that precautions being taken is all that is needed for now and good TOs.

I personally have players I may not allow to my events and if anyone wants to tell me I can or cannot do that then I will have a personal discussion with them.

 

Cutting someone from Rankings is also a choice that only Mike Marshall should be able to make, and as a punishment it will work for a few players but talking about publicly will be a mistake. At least, it should not be advertised.

[Tapdancer]

Agree with the principle of implementing a structured system for managing poor / sloppy player behavior (which could be seen rightly or wrongly as evidence of something more serious).

 

Improved tournament admin with an absolute requirement to record unannounced schemes / scheme targets and crew lists. 

 

Couple of points.

 

As already mentioned, up the threshold to 3/4 infractions, 2-3 could be too harsh.  The issue isn't the occasional error rather patterns of behaviour which needs to be addressed.

 

Do not apply the system to players with less than four ranked tournaments in the current or previous season.  (deals with new player issue)

 

Change the wording of the definition.

 

An error they have made in administering the game causes (or is likely to cause) the result of a game to be altered in favour of the player making that error, or their conduct is such that the TO has had to intervene.

 

deals with errors which cannot be anything other than  unintentional are are effectively self managing and can't contribute to NPE.

 

The system can be further tuned as other issues arise.

 

 

I don't believe any rules system will be in reality unfriendly or somehow reflects a negative change in the UK malifaux scene.  Just the opposite it is a demonstration that the scene is strong enough to deal with poor behavior in  proactive manner which does not leave individual players to put up with this in isolation.

 

 

We could leave things as they are and hope the bad behavior goes away on it's own, however it is doesn't there is areal risk the court of social media opinion (the mob) will step in to the vacuum.  There have examples of players being hounded out of other tournament scenes for perceived wrong doing. 

[M_Ruckuss]

Yeah.... I use too many- we've been doing suspense writing in literacy and I can't help it dammit....!

On a serious note I agree with 90% of Bens points, and feel Maria's "prevention is best" point is the best way forward.