Melee Attacks & Elevation Differences

[CritterKiller32]

Here's a situation that came up that we weren't quite sure of the correct answer.

 

Say I have a friendly model standing on the edge of a Ht 3 wall. An enemy model with an engagement range of 3" is at ground level and is standing 3" from the base of the wall. Are the two models engaged / can the enemy take a melee Action against the guy on the wall?

 

Are engagement ranges measured top-down only, do you add the horizontal distance to the vertical distance (for 6" total), or is range measured at an angle?

 

Say you add a Ht 1 hard cover railing to the edge of the wall. Does that affect anything or is it simply ignored because the models still have LoS to each other (assuming they are each Ht 2)?

[Fenton Crack]

Don't have my rebook on me, but I don't think the hardcover railing would affect things, as cover should not affect melee.

As far as distance and engagement, as I recall you need to consider the model's height and then add melee range for vertical, then just the top down horizontal measurement for the lateral needs to be within the melee range.

Edit: this is wrong regarding the measurement regarding height, see below.

[Fenton Crack]

.. and when I say Ht of the model, I mean the lower elevation model, as I do not recall the "upper" models height having any bearing.

(Although is equally plausible I am remembering that wrong )

[CritterKiller32]

I seem to recall a rule (no book in front of me) that all measurements needed to be made from a model's base, including melee range. So a model with a 2" melee attack can only reach 2" from the ground rather than 2" + its Ht.

 

My concerns with the 1" railing was if it adds to the effective range, as if the melee attack needed to reach up and over the railing.

[Fenton Crack]

Pretty sure the railing would not effect it unless the model is on top of the railing.

Thinking back I think its the top down difference plus the elevation distance, unless a model has a height bigger than the elevation difference, and your right about the measuring from the bases.

[Fenton Crack]

So in your first example, I'd say they are 6" away for the purposes if measuring engagement.

If one model was Ht. 4 somehow, they would only be 3" away.

[Fenton Crack]

Having gotten home and access to the actual rulebook, it appears the interpretation in post #5 is correct, as written on page 44 in a call out box.

 

Since there is no consideration of an attack with gun symbol, even though the railing may be blocking, I do not think it would affect the range or engagement,  if the models have LOS and are in range of horizontal plus vertical difference.

[Ausplosions]

You measure horizontally.

Then you add the difference in elevations to the distance measured.

That is how far apart they are.

This is ignored if the model on the LOWER elevation has a Ht bigger than the Ht of the terrain the higher model is on.

No other Ht measurements are taken into consideration.

[Sligui]

How exactly would you calculate the difference in elevation?

 

Example:

 

Wong (height 2) is on top of a height 4 pillar. A flesh construct (height 2) is 1 inch away from the pillar, but on the ground. 

[Mike3838]

The flesh construct isn't taller than the pillar, so he can't bypass the height difference. If he was ht1, ht2, ht3 or ht4 the result would still be the same:

He measures 1" horizontal, and adds 4" vertical = 5" distance. His melee attack is out of range.

If the flesh construct was ht5, he would be taller than the terrain, and therefore ignore the vertical component, ie. He would be 1" away.

Wong's Ht2 doesn't come into it.

[Sligui]

Thank you!

[The Godlyness]

Just so I am clear on this teddy is ht3 and the thing he wants to attack it's on a ht3 piece of terrain 2" away he is engaged. But if teddy is in base contact with a ht 4 wall he could not attack a model that is directly above him. Since his engagement range is not 4"

Weird.

[The Godlyness]

Also How do you attack downwards then?

[Verdeloth]

This is why i never played with elevated terrain ^^

[Mike3838]

Attacking downwards is exactly the same I think. If the lower models Ht exceeds the elevation difference, only use the horizontal measurement. Otherwise the higher model has to spend some melee range "reaching" down.

It's very abstract I grant you!

[Ratty]

Mike that is wrong.  This is the situation

 

C_W

C_W

C_P

C_P

C_P

C_P

 

The distance between people is... 1 (distance between bases) + 2 (difference between terrain and height  of model at the bottom) .. so 3", for both Wong to attack the Construct and the Construct to attack Wong... 

 

---

 

I think you are getting it mixed up with this situation. where neither model's height is above the pillar, so neither can ignore it so there is no LoS

 

C_P

C_P

C_P_W

C_P_W

[Scorpion0x17]

You sure about that Ratty?

Page 50 of the Rules Manual states:

Engagement Elevation

If two models are on different elevations, the elevation difference is added to the distance between them when determining engagement range and range for [melee] Attack Actions, unless the lower model has a Ht greater than the elevation difference.

[Ratty]

Yep

 

taking your quote

If two models are different elevations, the elevation difference is added to the distance between them when determining engagement range

They are talking about the difference in elevation between the two models... In this case it's the distance between the top of the Construct and the bottom of Wong. which is 2.

unless the lower model has a Ht greater than the elevation difference.

If Wong was on a Ht1 pillar, the Construct would be staring at Wong's crotch, so nothing is added to the range.

[Scorpion0x17]

I don't see how "the difference in elevation between the two models" includes the height of the lower model.

If you move Wong off the pillar and on to the ground, by how much will his elevation have changed?

Or, in other words, what is the elevation difference between Wong on the ground and Wong on the pillar?

[Scorpion0x17]

Also, if Wong and the Construct are both on the ground (with no pillar), is the elevation difference then -2?!

[Ratty]

If you imagine that a model is a Column from the base, the Height of the model high. This is the area the model represents. It's the distance between the column of 1 model and the column of the other model.

[Ratty]

Also, if Wong and the Construct are both on the ground (with no pillar), is the elevation difference then -2?!

Nope there is a part of each of the models column that is on the same elevation, therefore no difference.

To put it another way, you have Wong on a Pillar, and a Teddy attacking him. If you do it the way I suggest, if the pillar goes from 3" to 4", you gain 1" distance between the models. If it's the way your suggesting, the distance between them before is 0 as the Pillar is the same height as the Teddy, if it's increased to Ht it's now taller than the teddy so you now add 4" distance, from a 1" increase in the height of the pillar.

[Mike3838]

The problem we have Ratty is that your definition of "elevation difference" isn't specified in the rules.

Nowhere does it say to involve a model's Ht....

If I'm stood on something Ht1 (independent of any other models), surely my "elevation" is 1". Another model may have an elevation of 3" because they're standing on something taller.

You're telling us that the difference in the two models' elevations *isn't* 2". But I don't think you're using anything from the rulebook to justify that

[Ratty]

Very true, you may well be right. But if you read it your way. then the rule is entirely pointless.. I'm pretty sure no Ht1 model has a melee range of 3". no Ht2 a melee range of 4" or a Ht 3 a melee range of 5" which is what you are left with with your reading.

So yep I think I'm assuming that difference in elevation means the same as in 1.5 ... I'll get Justin to have a look at it.

[Ausplosions]

Ratty, you are not at all correct this time.

The Ht of the model is never taken into account unless the lower model has a Ht greater than the elevation.

You take the ELEVATION of the models in to account. Not the Ht.

So one model with :melee3 on a Ht 4 pillar. Another model is B2b with the pillar who is Ht 3 with a :melee3.

They are 0" apart plus the difference in ELEVATION of 4".

So they are 4" apart. So neither are engaged with the other.

[sharpobjects]

You measure horizontally.

Then you add the difference in elevations to the distance measured.

That is how far apart they are.

This is ignored if the model on the LOWER elevation has a Ht bigger than the Ht of the terrain the higher model is on.

No other Ht measurements are taken into consideration.

 

 

This is the answer which was also "liked" by Justin. Follow this to the letter and you will easily know if models are engaged in melee when elevated terrain is considered. Disregard any other explanation.