Starting Neverborn - Lilith

[tenshu]

No, the freshly created terror tot is not around when nekima kills the enemy model, the terror tot only comes into being once the model has been killed.Since it is not around at the time the killing took place, it can't grow from it.Tense is important.Don't confuse the model being killed and actually being removed from the tabletop.

settles it for me...

[StaticVortex]

No, the freshly created terror tot is not around when nekima kills the enemy model, the terror tot only comes into being once the model has been killed.

Since it is not around at the time the killing took place, it can't grow from it.

Tense is important.

Don't confuse the model being killed and actually being removed from the tabletop.

This nails it exactly.  With respect, this sounds like parsing minute to me, though for the subtlety that exists in timing, I believe the rules/cards address this:

 

First, we have Nekima with The True Mother and Rapid Growth upgrades.

In order for Nekima to summon a Tot, the Born of Blood ability must be used.  That means an enemy within 2" must be killed by Black Blood or the pustule.  For the purpose of discussion and ease of example, lets presume that the enemy model is a Death Marshall in base contact and a single wound remaining.  Nekima uses her Blood for Blood ability to deal one damage to herself, causing Black Blood to splash all over the Death Marshall, dealing one damage along with death to the Marshall. Nekima's controller may now discard a card to summon a Tot out of the squishy remains of the Death Marshall before the model is removed from the table.

 

Now, when does all this happen?  That seems to be the central question and point of confusion.  Looking at Rapid Growth, we see that a Tot can grow if it kills an enemy non-peon model with an attack action, and that if Nekima kills a model, a friendly model within 1" would 'count as' having performed the kill.  In this way we can logically substitute 'Tot' for 'Nekima' for the purposes of who performed the kill.  Only, in this example, there is no 'Tot' within 1" of Nekima to 'count as' having killed a Death Marshall, because she can only summon after the attack action has been taken and the damage dealt.  By the time the newly summoned Tot arrives, it is too late for the little tyke to grow.

 

Beyond that, the 'Feed the Brood' ability only states who can count as having made the kill, it does not address 'how' the grow works.  Grow states that a Tot may grow  from a kill with an Attack Action.  Black Blood is an ability, not an attack action...additionally, Blood for Blood is a Tactical Action, and not attack.  So even if the timing were to allow the Tot to exist at the time of the kill for the purposes of grow, the ability of grow would restrict it from taking place based on how the enemy was killed.

[Joel]

good catch

[Adran]

Gtreat Catch Static Vortex.

It doesn't work, because there is No way currently that an attack action can generate a tot, so that attack action can then be used to grow.

Timingwise I still disagree with you,  the verbs are active ( When this model kills a model) and Passive, (when a model is killed), so will still happen at the same time.

 lets say Justice attacks nekima- Justice hurts Nekima, and black blood goes off, killing Justice. Nekema has killed a model, and a model has been killed by the Black Blood ability, so both Feast my Darlings and Born of blood are capable of happening. She can choose to resolve Born of Blood first, summoning a terror tot, and then resolving Feast my Darlings to allow the Terror tot to Claim the kill as it is on the table at the time she gets to resolving this ability, BUT the death of Lady Justice was not the result of an attack action so it can not be used for the Grow ability. (The Tot Just gets the Kudos of the kill, presumably facehugger-style clawing its way out of her chest)

 

Even if Nekima attacks Lady Justice, and Missed, triggering Reposte, which then hurts Nekima and the Black blood ability happens, the Black blood was not part of the attack action, so the model was not killed by an attack action.

[Sybaris]

The only reason while there was a possibility for this to work, in my mind, was that the tot is placed before removing the killed model, a bit like a pause in the sequence.

 

Some food for thought is that the requirements for both abilities are met, so they should both occur, just like any other case of multiple abilities firing off that comes up in the game; the resolution of the first one doesn't prevent the others from happening as far as i am aware, and the controller gets to choose which comes up first.  This comes up often with abilities and conditions applying "at the start of this models activation". They all occur at the same time, but you get to pick which ones goes in what order.

 

Now this case is trickier because they apply on a killed model..as i stated above, the tot is specifically placed before removing the model, so by the time you use "grow" via Nekima, there is a tot within range...

 

just playing devils advocate. 

[Adran]

Grow only works if a model was killed with an attack action.

It doesn't work, even though the tot can show up in time to count as getting the kill. Its not a kill from an attack action 

[Sybaris]

Yeah i didn't look at the odds of it happening, but indeed if there's no way for an attack action to end up with the result, there's no combo in the first place

 

Both black blood pustule and blood for blood are tactical actions, pretty much solves the case imho.

[cdhay]

Phew

[Valtyr]

Well, I'm glad that finally got resolved. =)

 

I managed to get my first proper game of M2E about a week ago. I ran Lilith and my opponent ran McMourning.

 

Strategy - Turf War

Schemes - LiTS, Breakthrough, Frame for Murder, Plant Evidence, (can't remember the 5th Scheme)

 

My crew was:

 

Lilith

- Beckon Malifaux

- Living Blade

- Wicked Mistress

Barbaros

- Nephilim Gladiatus

Mature Nephilim

- Obsidian Claws

2 x Young Nephilim

2 x Terror Tots

 

His crew was the McMourning box with 3 x Punk Zombies thrown in and some upgrades. Unfortunately I have no more specific information of his crew make-up other than that. I chose Breakthrough and Plant Evidence for my Schemes, reasoning that the speed of the Tots would allows me to get up the flanks with ease, whilst the Nephilim and Lilith held the centre.

 

Key points that I took away from the game are just how manoeuvrable and agile the Nephilim are. They are impossible to pin down as practically every action has a Push effect, allowing me to really dictate where my opponent's models went, and feeding them one at a time to Lilith was particularly satisfying.

 

On one turn the Mature Nephilim was engaged by the Flesh Construct, it activated, triggered Charge Through to Push the Construct into Lilith, and charged into Sebastian, tearing him apart. These multi-layered interactions are huge fun once the synergies start to build. One moment in particular saw Lilith push McMourning into melee, flip the RJ on damage, only to have McMourning flip RJ on damage prevention. Curses!

 

Barbaros' Challenge and Cyclone Crash were excellent in this Strategy, allowing me to control my opponent's activations, and constantly draining his hand/deck. The Tots did exactly what I wanted them to do, and dropped Scheme markers all game, securing me 6 VP. The Young were the only models that didn't really *do* much, although against an Undead/Construct crew they can't really benefit that much from their Scent Blood (sp) ability. I'll keep them for now, and see how they perform against other opponents. 

 

All in all though, an excellent game, and a serious learning experience for both players!

 

- Valtyr

[Sybaris]

The Mature and the Tots are really the gems of the Nephilim "subfaction", with the Mature being the shining one imho, and tots providing the necessary "objective grabber" role. The Youngs are decent on the attack, but melt just as fast as tots, and are less mobile. They have their use of course, so are not a waste at all, but are too fragile to be our "shock troopers" that you typically find at that ss range. The Waldegeist can provide that.

 

The Young's performance is also why i rarely grow anything in M2E. The upgrades and models that maximise the growth mechanics can take a huge part of your crew...which means the tots often need to sprint long distances on their own to plant scheme markers, so they're rarely around a kill (and don't ever get kills themselves). And then switching a tot for a young...mmm, not always the best idea from my experience. Switching a Young into a Mature, however, is pure gold...but rarely if ever happens.

[Valtyr]

I think that the Young suffer, quite aptly, from being the 'middle child'. They are neither as fast as the Tots nor as deadly as a Mature but sit squarely in the middle of both. This makes them decent at everything without being particularly good at anything. Mine didn't evaporate this game, as my opponent was far more concerned with Lilith, Barbaros and the Mature, but I don't expect that to last too long.

I am thinking of running one alongside a Tot down a flank, making use of the Blood Frenzy and Flush Out triggers to eat any models that try to stop the Tot doing its thing. It could work, and would force my opponent to divide his crew even more.

I don't foresee myself running a Grow list outside of Nekima and her True Mother upgrade - it's just too much to juggle on top of everything else that you need to pay attention to in a game of Malifaux. Running Nekima with True Mother and Rapid Growth would at least allow her to do what she does best (kill stuff) and benefit from it directly, rather than having to mess around with For The Brood triggers all the time.

Ultimately though, I'm having a blast playing and painting the Nephilim and am looking forward to getting them on the table again soon.

- Valtyr

[Sybaris]

Let me know how your Youngs perform on escort-a-tot duty. I have trouble finding their niche. That said, the model i usually pick to go on the sidelines is the Mature, as he's the most self-sufficient Nephilim we have and he's often way too much to take for usual skirmishers, while he's vulnerable to elite strikers and shooters (Df 4) who often guard the center line of sights. Lilith an Nekima go for the kills, while the Youngs provide the initial attack punch and engage shooters.