Valtyr Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 Hi all, I'm getting back into Malifaux after about an 8 month hiatus - I needed a break from the game and am coming back refreshed, invigorated and excited to start flipping cards! I have decided to start with Neverborn, as they are a Faction that I never touched in either 1.5 or M2E and had a very hard time choosing between Lilith and Pandora, but opted for Lilith as I really, really like the Nephilim models, and wanted to be able to make a crew that was visually thematic and very synergistic to play with. That being said, I have come up with the following list to start playing Lilith. I fully realise that Malifaux is a game that does not really work with pre-made lists, but I wanted to see whether I was going down the right path or not, or whether there was any glaring issues that I might have overlooked. I have read through all the Schemes and Strategies and see this list as being able to perform moderately well at all of them. It will not blow people away, but it will have a solid chance of scoring VPs in every game I play. So, here's the list so far: 50SS - Scrap Lilith (Pool = 4) - Living Blade - Beckon Malifaux - Wicked Mistress Cherub Barbaros - Nephilim Gladiatus Mature Nephilim - Obsidian Claws Terror Tots x 2 Young Nephilim x 2 I decided not to go with a Rapid Growth list, as I felt that, lacking Nekima and her 'True Mother' upgrade, I would struggle to grow the Nephilim as well as score VPs, deny VPs and kill enemy models. Once Nekima gets re-released in plastic I will more than likely swap out the Mature Nephilim and the Cherub for her. So what do you all think? I am just about finding my feet with the game once again, so any feedback, positive or negative, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Valtyr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 I've played against lists like that and it's not bad. The Young need some shepherding as they die comparatively easy (I play Guild, though, with good shooting) but Tangle them forwards and it shouldn't be a problem. Also, it's a good list for Strategies with some killing and some objective running. It's neither fully geared for one or the other thing, so certain Scheme combinations could give you some grief. Lilith is very versatile so it's a good starter list. Welcome back through the Breach! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdhay Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 That list is very mobile with lots of flight models and the sprint from the terror tots. I am also not sure Lilith needs so many upgrades especially if you plan on getting her stuck in to the action. She is a monster herself without upgrades and has some great abilities on her normal card. But up to personal choice but another activation from all the upgrades would be good by maybe getting another terror tot. Never found that the cherub works too well for me and prefer primordial magic instead but again personal choice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M4dH4tter Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 Very fast list as already mentioned. I find Lilith has some "glass cannon" models in her crew box but that makes for a more tactical game! She will pretty much sit anyone down but that makes her a target. Anyways. Welcome back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtyr Posted June 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 Thanks for the feedback all! The idea behind the upgrades on Lilith is to use her as a manipulator as well as a clutch beat stick. Her upgrades allow her to create terrain, push enemy models into it, and get the most benefit out of her Living Blade upgrade. I like the Cherub as it generates terrain for Lilith to hide in in case she cannot cast Illusionary Forest for whatever reason. It also saves an AP for Vines or another melee attack. The speed of the crew will be quite daunting to get a handle on initially, and as the entire crew ignores terrain, I think I will be able to turn it against my opponent with lots of snares, pushes and pounces. Should be fun! Valtyr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdhay Posted June 1, 2014 Report Share Posted June 1, 2014 The mature neph wing buffet and the 0 action on barbarous upgrade will be good for pushing enemies into Lilith for her to use her living blade upgrade. But be mindful that Barbaros' 0 action challenge is pretty awesome and got me out of a few tight sports so be aware you can't challenge and use the nephilim gladius 0 action in the same turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zwergenkrieger Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 You really should consider the use of Waldgeists! They are so awesome with Lillith I can hardly find the right words for it. They provide terrain that hampers your opponent, but not your crew. They are really resilent, something that a Nephilim crew lacks. They are able to help Lillith to shut down the opposing crew, ie hinders movement to a high degree. Then bring in Bad Juju.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdhay Posted June 2, 2014 Report Share Posted June 2, 2014 Yeah i think I would agree. With your list above I think I would go waldgheists instead of young neph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sezar Posted June 3, 2014 Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 And the Black Blood Shaman! I find this model key in most my Lilith games, where it is almost an auto include. Between easy Tot growing and Black Blood Pustule, my friends have quickly realized he is one of the first models that has to be neutralized, that good it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtyr Posted June 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2014 The Black Blood Shaman and Nekima will be making their introductions once they receive new models without a doubt. Both are very thematic with Lilith, and make for a very potent Grow list. One question I did have actually: Nekima's The True Mother upgrade states that she can kill a model and have it count for another model's Grow and Mature ability - does this mean that I also need to have the Rapid Growth ability in play, or does this circumvent the need for that upgrade? I'm sure the answer is yes, I do need Rapid Growth in play, but I thought it better to ask regardless. - Valtyr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdhay Posted June 4, 2014 Report Share Posted June 4, 2014 Yes you would still need the rapid growth upgrade in play or the one that comes built into the Black Blood Shaman's stat card Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW_Neverborn04 Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 I've been playing Lilith since 2011. 1.5 was great for growing, however I'm not a fan of it now. In a 50 point list, you'll be taking Nekima and her uprgrade for 15ss, a BB shaman at 7 points and at least 1 point for the upgrade of rapid growth if you put it on Lilith which brings it to a total of 23 minimum, more if you put it on something like the Mature, and that's not even mentioning the tots or young you'll be hiring. Tots are great, and should only be grown if you need more blitzers as that's what the Young are for. In any event, that's too many points to invest for 50ss as others like Somer can spend 9points on 3 gremlins + 2points for family tree upgrade and double up on gremlins first turn by dropping a low mask and using 'Do it Like Dis'. For larger games a grow list is great, but as you like to stick to Nephilim, consider taking Tuco at 7ss, giving him the Obsidian Talons upgrade, as he shouldn't die, which brings him to 8ss and run him with a doppelganger at another 7ss. It fits into your theme of Nephilim as Tuco is a nephilim and a doppelganger can change its skin to look like whatever. A potential 5 shots (2 from Tuco, and 3 from the doppelganger if you can get the perfect blend trigger) with potential blasts can surprise your opponent given how Neverborn as a whole don't have that many ranged attacks. Those 2 running together equal the price of Nekima and her upgrade and work much better, at least in my experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 Sw nevervorn04 I would really like to see one or two list you like to play i wanted to try a grow list this weekend. Got myself some neverborn models i been missing yesterday. Iggy. Tuco. Lelu. Liltu. Primodial magic. Nekima. Still missing doppel ganger. Widow weaver and insidious madness, wotn be able to get them either. Local store tried to order them but they are out of stock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namtar Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 Widow weaver and insidious madness, wotn be able to get them either. Local store tried to order them but they are out of stock Try the internet, there are some guys who still have planty of stocks from original packed metal models. And if you order everything you want from one place, the post isn't to much divided by the number of ordered models Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW_Neverborn04 Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 Verdeloth, we all know Malifaux isn't a game strictly based on list building like 40k or Hordes. Given strategies, scheme's and terrain, effects the hiring, but in general, I tend to take 3-5 tots, and a minimum of 2 Young. I even opt out of Matures with what is drawn, A shaman is great for 7ss just for the healing, and when I do hire young/mature , I use them to screen or just run them in to serve as a distraction to kill enemy AP. I always have done this in 1.5 and 2nd. Tots have always been great objective runners, and from my group, we normally play 3 people, though 4 comes into play from now and then. If you want, or if this thread wants, I can post the statistics for Lilith and the main branch of nephilim (tots, young, and Mature) from 1.5 and 2nd edition as I keep complete stats. It would give a good comparison from 1.5 to 2nd edition. To go back to the initial request, the above is right. Lilith is a manipulator. In fact, in 2nd edition she should be using this more than going to kill. She is versatile. Unlike other Masters who have a certain area/time to active, Lilith can activate whenever (at the start of turn, middle, or end) and still get the job done. As the above have stated: she has speed, and board control, you just need to keep her away from blasts and those who can target her WP Remember, Malifaux is not strictly about killing as other tabletop games are. Lilith is an easy master to get into, but hard to master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 Try the internet, there are some guys who still have planty of stocks from original packed metal models. And if you order everything you want from one place, the post isn't to much divided by the number of ordered models Do you have any suggestion to a good page for europe ? ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 Tuco and Doppelganger is not a part of a grow list right ? Is barbaros a good pick? I just got nekima and she will replace him for me. But i cant see any use of him now anymore. Also wonder if mr graves works with lilith ? I buyed him and tannen but have yet to try him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdhay Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 In my opinion Barbaros has the best 0 action in the game with his challenge which is not to be overlooked. And although he cannot fly and has poor walk stats he does have nimble to make up for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SW_Neverborn04 Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 Graves and Tannen work well with Lilith, especially Graves, but they are not to be used with a grow list. To use a grow list, at least for me, is very specific. You would have to have the right mix of strategy and schemes, although if it is a story encounter where you can pick schemes (page 77 rulebook under choose and reveal schemes), all the better. It's best done when your opponent has to come to you. In a 50 SS game, as a generic grow list, I'd Have: Lilith: Beckon Malifaux +1ss Wicked Mistress +1ss 3 tots: 12ss 2 young: 12 ss Nekima with True Mother: 15 ss BB Shaman: 7 ss That's 48 points, 49 if you want to give Lilith Rapid Growth, or 50 if you take primordial magic as drawing up to 8 cards (P.Magic and Lilith's Rush of magic), even if you have to discard 2, helps to stack your hand The above list gives you versatility in what you want to do. Don't forget about Lilith's speed and her manipulations. Most enemies see her as a melee master/damage dealer and that's it, but if you use her tricks, she is much more than that, and it tends to surprise them. Last game I had was a 60ss Treasure hunt strategy against Ulix who wanted to play test a bunch of things. In that game, Lilith herself used wicked mistress upgrade to pull 2 rooster riders off a ledge to their deaths for falling damage (HT 6-Ht 0 ='s pain), took out one bayou bushwacker in melee, Tangle shadowed P. magic so it could use it's " I'm a scheme Marker" rule and get me 3VP for plant explosives, then high tailed it to my enemies deployment zone for a full 3VP announced entourage scheme. In essence, she took out almost 1/3rd of models in initial hiring costs and gave me 6VP. Not bad for a model built for melee though was only engaged with one enemy over 5 turns. There is a reason why she is the first neverborn (2nd edition fluff), she works well with everything, though better with Nephilim and Swampfiends. Lilith also makes you look at terrain in a different light, and that is very important, and that is something you need to keep in mind for a grow list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtyr Posted June 6, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 I'll be using Barbaros quite a lot as he seems perfectly set up to tank for the rest of the crew. His (0) also acts as yet another way to drain my opponent's deck and hand, and armour combined with 'stones should help him last a lot longer than he really has any right to. I don't know whether his personal upgrade is that good though. I think it would be excellent in Turf War for example, but don't really see where else it would benefit all that much. - Valtyr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 6, 2014 Report Share Posted June 6, 2014 Question abput true mother. Once per turn when an enemy die to black blood or blood pustule i may discard a card to summon a terror tot. Same card also gives trigger for grow mature trigger. So if a friendly model with growth in range or nekima with growth can i produce a young nephelim after killing something ? Activate nekimas (0) to make her blood hurt and finish of an enemy model. Both feast my darling and born of blood trigger. I decide to put born first and get a tot and then i want it to grow . Is this possible ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sybaris Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 I am unfortunately not sure of the answer. The theoritical sequence : 1 - a model gets killed within 2" of Nekima via Blood for Blood. 2 - Before removing the model, she uses the Born of Blood ability to summon a damaged Terror Tot 3 - if Nekima is considered to have killed the model, she can use the Feast my Darlings ability to summon a Young Nephilim 4 - The enemy model is removed. So...this assumes that: a ) models killed via Blood for Blood count as being killed by "this model" for the purpose of Feast, My Darlings (it's the Black Blood ability that kills the model, not the action). This may have been covered elsewhere for purpose of killing models for vp conditions. b ) Feast, My Darlings may be used after Born of Blood, even though both should occur when the model is killed (i.e. at the same time). So if a or b assumptions don't work, then it can't be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verdeloth Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 I think i read it somewhere that it is a part of black bloods skill and it count as kill. Not same as burning or poison Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valtyr Posted June 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 I think it was Joel that stated that as Black Blood is an ability, and not an action, you always count as having made the kill with it. - Valtyr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdhay Posted June 7, 2014 Report Share Posted June 7, 2014 @valtyr with regards to barbaros upgrade It is good for pushing people towards terror tots and Lilith with living blade upgrade to get pounces on them. And done on a model that lilith has rooted the damage really starts to add up if they fail that wk 14 duel. Best done at the end of a turn when the opponent has used up a lot of their hand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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