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First, welcome to Malifaux! You've picked a wonderful master to start with Lilith is super-fun, and is deep enough to be the only master you need for a long time. Second, don't sweat early games. Malifaux is a highly-skilled game, and almost nobody plays their first 10 games nearly as well as their second 10 games. Third, take Wings of Darkness and Beckon Malifaux always. These are without a doubt her best upgrades. Stone for cards every turn until you get really good at the game. It's nearly always the right call, so save yourself the mental energy for now and just do it Fourth, avoid Grow unless you love the aesthetic. Making Grow lists work is its own learning curve, and most people just get frustrated and give up. Fifth, the Cherub is great. You'll see lots of recommendations to go with the Primordial Magic. It's not that the PM is that much better (if even at all), but that the PM is super simple to play, while the Cherub is a very high-skill piece. If you love the little guy, stick with him! It'll slow down how fast you improve somewhat, but in the end, he's a totally legit model, and super cool! A few questions: 1. Are you looking to play with a small group primarily, or are you looking to jump into tournament play? 2. When do you expect to go to 50ss? The game is very different at different SS levels, so advice differs a lot based on SS level. I personally highly recommend 50ss games. The best advice I can give for learning any master in Malifaux is pick the every turn abilities of the master and only use those. Ignore the highly situational stuff to start. Malifaux imposes a very, very high mental burden. In tournaments, my first thought in picking my crew is "how much mental energy do I want to burn this game?" Lilith has many very powerful abilities. However, all but 3 are highly situational. I'd recommend your first 20 games be all about these abilities: 1. Illusionary Forest - Oh my goodness, so powerful. asrian's post talks about great uses for this. Note that you have no restrictions for LOS, models, terrain, markers, etc... Also note that they are two separate dense markers. Being in one marker doesn't let you see through the other. 2. Wicked Vines - This can be immensely efficient and should be how most of your AP is spent over the course of a game. Typically, when you root something important, your opponent will have to jump through hoops to free the model. On occasion, they can't get the root off and you've effectively paralyzed the model, which is insane for a 12" no LOS Ca6 ability! If your opponent has no good way to remove the root, this ability can be bonkers. And even if they do, they're usually investing quite a bit in order to do it. 3. Tangle Shadows - Sometimes you use this to swap your enemy to you, but most often, you'll use this to reposition your killer. This ability is why Lilith loves strong combat pieces like Graves, Johan, Nekima and even Bad Juju (if you're interested in the Juju list, I play it often as my "I need a mental break" list. Note that it is by no means the best Lilith list). When you need to bring a model home AND put Nekima in position to kill stuff, you'll net something insane like 4-6 AP out of this ability! It's amazing. Think of it first and foremost as an uber-efficient means of moving your crew around, and second as an uber-efficient means of moving your crew around A distant third is yanking them into your crew, which can actually be a risky move more often than you think. One common mistake I see is to swap your 6SS model for their 8-9SS model, only to have spent a SS and/or a high card to do it, an AP from Lilith, and then to find that they have something nasty they can do with your now easy-to-kill model, such as summon a model off of it dying. You will absolutely win games by yanking a model to its death, but treat that part of it as situational, and focus on learning how to use this ability for your own crew's mobility. Another important piece: this ability encourages you to spread out a bit. Learning to strike the right balance between overextending and providing yourself efficient swap options is a key piece of playing Lilith. Hope that all helps! Based on your answers to my questions, I can also give you crew advice if you like!

Only reason I know of is for use prior to activation on turn 1. Deploying in the open can actually make a big difference with my crew, which so often surprises my opponent on turn 1. If I have to deploy in cover, I often find myself just short of a nasty turn 1 attack. Getting that jump can snowball the game in order to allow me the time I need to get a full 10 points. Since the Doppel has manip 14, she doesn't need the protection prior to activation, generally, so I think she definitely always goes 1000 faces. Outside of a timed game? Probably always worthwhile to play 1000 faces and not be so aggro in deployment.

Take doppelganger. When you have lilitu and Teddy already, doppelganger becomes a monster. Skip candy and Kade. You really won't use them.

These are awesome. Thousand faces plays beautifully with malifaux provides and retributions eye. I think it is an auto take on doppelganger. I could even imagine it for nekima, though if I have the SS, malifaux provides + mimic's blessing are going to be her new best friends. My trouble is that my Pandora list can't quite fit it all Pandora, wings, voices, connection, 7 ss Nekima, malifaux provides, mimic's blessing Lilitu, mimic's blessing or mprovides Doppelganger, thousand faces Primordial Magic Spawn mother Wisp Over by 2 SS.

Yeah, nothing against the Weaver. She's great. I'd probably put her above Coppy. But Doppel + Lilitu/Graves + Beater is really, really hard to top.

Curious how it goes for you! I find lure is amazingly helpful in this list, but a heal would be as well. Wisps are 30mm.

After another game under my belt, my competitive list is a beast. Extremely lethal to non-masters. The Wisps are a huge, huge buff. For the flex, I look to Mimic's Blessing, On Wings of Darkness + stones for cards, Crystal Ball, Retribution's Eye for Doppel, etc... I think I should add this monstrosity to PMF.

Chompy Dreamer doesn't deserve to be tier 3. Of the lists you have, I actually would rate that list closer to true NBorn tournament caliber than any of the others, including the Greg P-lite list. However, IME, Doppel >> Weaver in that list: once you have Lilitu and Teddy, Doppel becomes a complete and total auto-take, way beyond anything else in the game Plus, she can run your schemes if needed, including any Don't Mind Me schemes. So I'd rework it as: (1)The Dreamer — 7ss +Restless Dreams – 1ss +Tantrum – 2ss +Aether Connection – 1ss (2)Day Dream – 2ss (3)Day Dream – 2ss (4)Day Dream – 2ss (5)Coppelius – 8ss (6)Lilitu – 7ss (7)Teddy – 11ss +On Dreaming Wings – 2ss (8)Doppelganger – 7ss +Retribution's Eye – 1ss Another bit: Juju can't be placed upfield. It's swampfiend minions only. This is why he doesn't make the cut in Zoraida tournament lists I'd put that list in Tier 3 with Lucius.

Very, very cool article! I think you should add a link to PMF, or if you're feeling generous, make it a PMF article with a banner at the top proclaiming its source (check with Hateful DB on that one if you're interested). This is really neat, Khyodee! I'll think on feedback.

I don't know of any tier 1 NBorn list that fits your description (not saying they don't exist). I do have a tier 2 list I use in tournaments for its ease of play (goes well with beer and the last round of the day :p) that doesn't need the Doppelgänger, because the key actions come from juju and Lilith, but she still makes the cut as a great scheme runner and initiative cheater. If I really need the extra Silurid, I drop her. Rare, tho.

Lilitu + Doppel is really, really good. 5 Ca7 lures can completely change the dynamic of a game, and it really only costs you 7 SS to have that option, since Doppel is such an auto-take in competitive play. Lilitu edges out nurses in my Zoraida lists, but I don't think anyone should see a nurse as sub-optimal. A nurse is nearly always what I'd add if I just had 6 more SS One other consideration: I suspect that Spawn Mother + 1-2 wisps is an auto-include for Zoraida, which adds contention for medium (lay egg), conflicting with the nurse. Meanwhile, Lilitu can paralyze the doll with a . But if you need the heal for Zoraida, a nurse is super efficient. I guess I should also add that Doppel and Iggy compete for , so it's not like the nurse is worse than him in terms of suit overlap.

Just a comment: I don't think card draw has diminishing returns in Malifaux until you're drawing far more than is reasonable, and I think there even may be a mathematical case to be made for card draw having increasing returns at the scale we're talking about. I think there are competing phenomena here, one being how additional "guaranteed" duels can compound in efficacy (arguing for increasing returns), another that there are a limited number of duels in a turn (arguing for diminishing returns). I feel pretty confident that you're a long way from diminishing returns with Wings + Crystal Ball + Bewitch. (I haven't done the math, and it's very complex math, as it varies on number of opposed duels, simple duels, suit requirements, and opposing hand strength). As far as Nurse vs. Iggy, both are great. Obviously, Iggy puts more kill-pressure on the enemy team, while a nurse has a ton more team utility. My above list is intended to be a ranged kill-pressure team, thus Iggy is the clear choice. I'm working on a less combat-oriented Zoraida crew which may prefer a nurse. Not sure yet.

A general note about chompy dreamer: you want your daydreams up in the opponent's business where they can apply the debuff, engage would be chargers and shooters, and take hits fit the dreamer when he drops out of chompy form. As mentioned above, temper this when hunting party is in the pool

Chompy dreamer summons as many or more times per game as 'summoning' dreamer, but the summoning is far far less laborious. Always just needs a 7, don't have to mark wounds, don't have to figure out healing summoned models, and only need alps and daydreams. It is also quite competitive. I'd guess that a big reason why it isn't common is that it overlaps strategies with Pandora.

Wisps change Mama Z dramatically. 1. Voodoo becomes an every turn thing 2. Bewitch/Obey become every turn things 3. Spawn Mother becomes an amazing piece I think Iggy + McTavish + Doppel + Lilitu + Spawn Mother + 2 Wisps is going to be very hard to beat. I have only one turn with the list so far, but it was immediately obvious how powerful it is. My two lists for the foreseeable future: Competition build: Zoraida McTavish Doppelganger Iggy Lilitu (can paralyze doll) Spawn Mother 2 Wisps 5 SS of 'flex' Casual Build: Zoraida Bad Juju, Eternal Fiend, Hexed Among You Spawn Mother 3 Waldgeists Bayou Gator (can paralyze doll) 2 Wisps Note: the competition build is still meant to be my "kill stuff on boards with long sight lanes" build. I have other masters for boards with blocking terrain.

You seem like a cool dude Yes, I was a bit drunk and being petty in return for what I perceived as pettiness/strawmen. I apologize and I will stop! A couple things: 1. I'm talking about intra-faction, meaning that I model I list as "weak" within the faction could well be perfectly viable outside the faction. I personally believe that Neverborn are a tier 1 faction. 2. As far as meta, my experience in the West Coast US/Canadian meta is new: I've only been to two 2-day tournaments for a total of 10 major tournament games. However, my experience thus far is that the UK players are right on about Neverborn. While I'll certainly admit to being relatively new, my opponents were not: highly active henchmen, the creator of PMF, masters qualifiers, dudes who travel the country playing big Malifaux events, etc... I started the larger of the two events playing against the previous year's winner and went undefeated, so I was among awesome players out of the gates. I wouldn't feel so confident in my assessment of the faction if it weren't that folks with a crap-ton of significant experience were highly impressed with my crews, which are by in large right in line with the UK meta (sans Joel Henry, who plays an intriguingly different Pandora game than I do, but got me going in the right direction with Chompy Dreamer, who is legit). The TO, a consistent WFB GT winner, saw my painted model set and remarked that "in those 20 models, I see 4 very different tier 1 crews". 3. I'm not always advocating for huge buffs. For Barbaros, for example, I'm just advocating for his attack to fall inline with the standard for a 7ss model (and he's a 10). Ml 6 with a 2/4/5 is pretty much the standard for combat-oriented 7ss models. His weak would still be 2. Also, the "augment strengths for flavor instead of weaknesses for ease" argument is a strawman. Of course model character and unique style is better than vanilla models. But you also have to watch for the rock-paper-scissors effect. Flavor is great. Win/lose at deployment is not. There are many, many considerations in model design. I'm not blind to them. Sorrows relying so utterly on MLC + incorporeal means they are hard-countered by blasters. Hard counters are VERY bad in a game that takes 2 hours to play! Another way to look at it: in many cases I'm advocating for increasing a model's options. Candy with Ca6, for instance, would have more viable options on her turns, rather than relying so heavily on sweets/sours.

I didn't suggest making anything "easy or straightforward", and would suggest that if you think these models are some of our most potent, then you might need to review how you play the stronger models in the faction. I'm not losing games. No idea why those who disagree with me assume I'm having trouble with these models or something. Quite the contrary...

Meta does indeed matter a ton, but the high level tournament play is pretty telling. Also, there is a big difference between 'needs a buff' and 'a buff would bring it in line with the rest of the faction'.

EDIT: I shouldn't be petulant Baby Kade, Barbaros and Candy are not tournament worthy. We have far stronger lists than any list that runs those models.

I can't help myself pondering how Neverborn might achieve some better intrafaction balance, so I figured I'd start a discussion on it If you just think about how to make each model in the faction either less of an auto-take or more of a viable choice, and forget about whether the faction would be rendered too weak relative to other factions, what comes to mind? For an example of intrafaction models where we have rich choice, look at our scheme runners: -Terror tots, Gupps, Silurid, Insidious Madness, Effigy, Sorrows, and Puke Snake all see regular play, while changelings and corrupted hounds are sure to start cropping up But we have some models that just never show, because they're so rarely the right tool for the job relative to other pieces. Let's start with small buffs to some models I'd like to see more of: -Mature Neph - Bump to Df 5 to make him a bit more of a bruiser -Young Neph - Cg 9 to offset reach 1 -Bad Juju - Unimpeded -Sorrows - Df 4, Wk 4 -Baby Kade - Manipulative 14 (big bump) -Candy - Ca6 on her attacks -Lelu - Wk 6, No card cost for Lie in Wait -Beckoner - -1 SS, -1 Wd -Mysterious Emmisary - Armor +1 -Barbaros - 2/4/5 on his attack -Spawn Mother - Wisps may make her great. Not sure yet. Next, some cuddles to models to make them not auto-take, particularly in ways that avoid NPEs: -Doppelganger - uh oh. Remove initiative cheat There, I said it! -Pandora - Voices can't paralyze masters -Lilith - Tangle Shadows doesn't ignore LOS and/or can't target masters -Nekima - Remove Blood for Blood? It's super flavorful, but it jacks up HtK so much. She kinda kills everything atm. I dunno. -Waldgeists - My beloveds! Favorite models. But they are too good. Probably the biggest offender is the 4" engage. Reduce it to 3" Hate to mess with these. -Stitched - 3/4/6 curve. Severe against them should put them on htk exactly. Remember: these are top-of-head "musings", not super-thought-out What are yours? Ideas?

I think young neph are solid. 2/4/5 with auto push is excellent for 6 stones. Flight is amazing on the right board. The trouble isnt young neph, the "trouble" is we are spoiled for choice. Young neph are good at many things, but for a given game, there are often better choices. Schemes? We have many many incredible options. Area control? Can't beat the waldgeist. Killing? Illuminated and stitched are hard to beat. If you love the models, use them! As far a grow lists, I consider them cute, but never tournament-worthy.

Thanks, man! Very cool!

Thanks, Santa! Super helpful!

I am now a bit confused multiple wisps can't target the same model, but can one wisp target two different models in a turn?

Can they do attack actions? Bull rush would be sweet