Ludvig

Didn't the m2e starter appear years after m2e dropped or am I just senile? I think the multitude of two-faction boxed sets that now exist would be complemented well by a starter kit with a couple of cheap decks and startup rules. The old set was annoying for those of us who just liked the models but had all the other stuff. This sollution would lead to a more modular starting experience.

@Bazlord_Prime

My number one suggestion would be dropping the idea of Sam as your leader.   I've tried him in HH on several occasions and he just isn't a tanky leader suited for it. He is a glass cannon that relies on a lot of support (usually Sonnia) to reach his full potential. If you are hell bent on Sam I would pick other upgrades and use Francisco to give him at least a shot at staying around and add some damage. Using Sam for rapid fire instead of wasting ap trying to put burning out is probably more efficient. Can't remember if hench leaders can take Debt to the guild but rapid firing with that on the opposing leader is usually pretty effective. Edit: saw that others also gave some good advice while I had my answering typed out but not posted.

In my experience Ryle is really solid as a leader and you are usually better off with a disposable heavy hitter like the executioner and cheap chaff that can just stand around for the strat than trying to take a list with several mid-range models. I guess monster hunters might work pretty well instead of stalkers, they pack a punch. 

Who knows what Lucius eats? He's stylish and stealthy and seems to control people of weak will which are all classic vampire tropes. 

The merc models are more glass cannons than tanks. Tanky is more of a freikorps thing (freikorps are also mercenaries storywise). The Viks and Bishop are barely dressed.

The guild section is pretty saturated with jokes and silly stuff that doesn't add all that much betawise but in my experience gremlins have a lot less players than most other factions.

The problem with the silly stuff in m2e was that when it went well it went really well and that gave a lot of negative press. Having the silly stuff which people remember mainly when it overperforms spectacularly and also a smaller player base is a dangerous combination. I hope you guys make it through in decent shape.

I don't agree on this. Friendly ap granting abilities were usually worth about two ap so nrver charging out of activation seems needlessly harsch. It is only when you take ap for an enemy that I can see a problem, not being able to declare charges for opposing models could make sense. Thrn again it is now pretty pointless to move an eny once with obey since they can usually just charge back for an ap so the control aspect of obey got devalued with 1ap charges.

@Ceej you can't reduce to 0 unless specifically mentioned so you are taking that 1 damage from reckless no matter what.

"Combat Finesse:  Actions targeting this
model cannot be Cheated."

Is that the duel or both duel and damage? I seem to remember that bonuses to attack actions in m2e were only the actual duel because of how damage was worded. Just wanted to check. I'm not sure how you would reword to make it clearer, maybe something in the base rules makes this clear?

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

I didn't say access to corpses wasn't included, I said access to 4 grow tokens instantly wasn't included.

Step 4 of replacing says:
If the new and original models belong to the
same Crew, the new model becomes the target
of any effects that targeted the original model,
such as Schemes and Tokens. The new model
is always considered a legal target for those
effects.

Do tokens on the old model even transfer to the new model? I'm a bit hazy on the "target" part of that rule. The token rules state that models gain tokens and have them. Are we to assume that the tokens target that model?

9 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Yes, it's balanced by the cost to grow into it, which is having an 5ss+ model get killed by a tot/killed by another model with the trigger, then an 8ss model get killed by one of the Nephilim with Mature, or by another model with trigger, or needing to consume 4 corpses which will take 4 turns without significant master AP investment.


Also, tot summoned turn 3, grows into young turn 3, matures turn 4, is tot to mature in 1 turn.

Why are there several models in the crew (including the mandatory totem) which give you corpses without kills if having access to corpses hasn't been included in the model balancing? On further consideration I think the one corpse marker per action is a pretty healthy restriction and if you really want to grow you'll need your master to help you out. It still seems to me like growing from corpses without any models dying is a very deliberate inclusion in the crew. 

I think they look pretty neat for a 4ss model. The real stars bring the hurt while these guys sit behind a house and then you go reckless to get 6 actions instead of 4 on the last two turns of the game or something similar. They seem like purely scheme runners with a backup use if someone gets near them to give out adversary so your real models can protect them. Put one on each flank and if the opponent can't devote enough resources you bring home the VP. If they counter you the Ortega crew puts out pretty decent range damage and can hopefully reposition to protect them.

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Those big things are also balanced around being summonable like that. A mature isn't. And at the start of the game isn't the only time this could happen. Play against a spam crew and there will be corpse markers everywhere. All that needs to happen is get Hayreddin to summon a Tot close enough, and then in 1 turn it becomes a mature.

It never matures in a single turn, you can have a million grow markers on it but since it needs to replace at the end of its activation the new model comes in already activated. You'd need reactivate to mature in the same turn as you grew and that doesn't seem to be available in neverborn. So you have a middling nephilim with a maximum of four wounds that could potentially grow into an activated mature with about six wounds if you were super sneaky and did it near the end of one turn and manage to stack some healing effects.

So Hayreddin summons the tot turn three, it snacks on unlimited corpses and grows turn three. The new model can acuvate earliest turn four and replace itself at the end of the activation. If you have obeys you get a few ap from thr mature turn four, otherwisr you only have the turn five activation.

The mature nephilim is balanced around being grown into just like summonable models are balanced for being summoned, it's not exactly an exact science where summonable model loses X stat and the game is automatically balanced. Many masters need one marker and one ap along with a decent card to get an extra model. The nephs need two markers but no card to upgrade a model by 3ss. 

On 1/24/2019 at 5:48 AM, santaclaws01 said:

Not a fan of being able to get a potential 4 grow tokens on a model in 1 turn.

It shouldn't be that much of a problem, you'll be putting a ton of resources into that model which will still go down pretty fast when the enemy focuses their attention on it.

The resources spent to grow a tot into a mature are beyond what most summoners spend to put a big model on the table from thin air. The exception here is that thr opponent needs to cause four wounds to kill the tot before it grows into anyting useful.

@Marcusito I can't remember the last time I tried to be shooty in guild.  

All the beaters were melee monsters and debt to the guild was insane with flurrying models. I usually even used Perdita to charge in for the free crit strikes and because she was almost immortal with Francisco's buff so she would tie up really scary models. She would push up and shoot turn one because people were usually too far off to use all three ap on close attacks. I never got monster hunters, if I had those I might have tried some shooting. McCabe would put nimble on some big bad beater and then charge in with it and Francisco. Hoff would go full stomp usually.

The exception was Sonnia of course but she always took a cheerleader crew and the rest melee models. To some extent Lucius wouls be shooty by commanding the odd shot from a thrall before meee ensued since he couldn't make them charge out of activation. I also ran a single pathfinder with him if I could shit down an approach with a trap to lock down half the board.

6 minutes ago, Michael Curran said:

Ludwig: your a crusty old Guild veteran..... give me a competative LJ crew for 50 SS please my good man.

Wouldn't know where to start in m3e to be honest. I've sort of drifted around all over the place and lost touch with guild. In m2e I'd start with Frank and the Jury and build the rest to taste. I'll enjoy finding out what makes her tick in m3e.

21 minutes ago, Michael Curran said:

The model and I believe the new sculpt from gencon - has a pistol IN HAND firing into a coffin.

Considering the range that model is firing at it seems like that's just her melee attack range. I think it's more her way to put stuff to their final rest.

@Marcusito

What core changes have impacted our playstyle? I don't have enough m3e games to have an opinion on that.

Damagewise we seem to be much more in line with the other factions which isn't a bad thing but having ridiculous weak damage was a pretty central part of what being guild meant for me. Many guild players would call a 6ss model with "only" 2 min damage weak and barely touch a model over 8ss that didn't have min 4. 

A gun on a melee beater feels off and I would hate for her to lose even more melee oomph to make up for an action that won't be used often. If the gun needs a rule it could be something like the old blindfire to just do a small aura of distract or whatever. It doesn't really bother me personally, maybe thr gun is just a symbol of office, she might not even keep it loaded.

I would love to see that. Three player games are usually great fun, if you are four players I usually prefer two standard matches since the game is slow enough already.

Anything not referencing the centerline is usually good so I think mostly the strats would need to change to place markers in the center circle instead of on the line.

I don't think a cerberus in a Marcus crew is that squishy but having a general upgrade designed for one or two models doesn't sound great.

I'll agree magical training really stands head and shoulders over the others, haven't really considered how it compares to the upgrades in other factions.

1 hour ago, susannymn said:

-Soulstone Cache = a Trap

I don't suppose you'd care to elaborate just a little bit?

I'm reasoning that if the ability to stone for an onslaught lets you kill an enemy model that would otherwise have survived it was worth the 2ss investment on the upgrade, especially if that gave you a point in reckoning or prevented enemy scoring in turf war. The minion aura also makes that soulstone count double when it is used. Angelica getting that extra marker out could also be a significant boost to your vp as BFOmega pointed out. It's not nearly as much of an autotake as magical training though, in m2e just the extra hand size took a master upgrade and 2ss I think?

The stack or no stack issue should really be locked down as soon as possible because it kept being a question for the entirety of m2e and could force rewrites of abilities if locked down.

@Jordon

It's going to be hard to balance upgrades so certain models don't want them more. I think my "are enforcers just the worst" thread was veering towards ss limits instead of station but the devs said that wasn't happening. The arcanist ones may be a bit extreme in how good the minion bonuses are.

Certain bonuses are always going to favour certain models, Sonnia seems to love the guild one that lets her ignore armour despite not gaining the minion bonus.

1 hour ago, Marcusito said:

They do what they did in 2E.  They just do it better.

Do they really do it better now? Guild used to have an abundance of models with absurd damage tracks and built in crits. It looks like the damage is more in line with everyone else's now.

Don't have the cards on me but didn't the empower bonus work on the model itself as well since it was an aura? I'll be honest: I'm mostly thinking of them both on a cerberus each. Marcus and Myranda then further ups their survivability so you get to use them properly. Two camouflaged tigers running in a pack should allow you a couple of soulstone recharges before they go down.