Helm

This had never even crossed my mind. Thanks a lot for pointing it out, not that I can actually do anything about the situation. Although I've never uttered this before... here's hoping for a free rules and possibly stats PDF. I believe that the second wave playtest in particular is going to be vital, and testing time is precious.

Yeah, I guess I'm "fortunate" enough not to have that issue; having not played her in 1.5 and never having considered playing Nephilim, I haven't experienced anything she's lost in the change. Although even considering that, I had trouble figuring out what was going on with that Avatar. I guess Lilith was always a bit of a complex concept; Mother of Monsters going on, except those Monsters were always the Nephilim, which were kind of demon things that evolved like Pokémon with a vampiric edge or just transformed direct from corrupted humans; Master of Malifaux, so terrain sort of obeyed her, and she could teleport for... some reason? On top of that, a melee beatstick, which I guess works if you consider her as a mother hunting for her children-although why the Mature Nephilim didn't just do that, I don't know. As someone new to her, I quite like the modularity of her theme now. Her card has elements of all of the above in a subtle way (I want to see how or if Tangle Shadows helps with Growing) but can lean very heavily on any aspect of her theme. Plus i really like the idea of someone else going out and doing the hunting for once.

As the person who brought up both Teddy and Taelor, those are the models I've tested because those are the models I own from 1.5. Although someone bought me the Lilith model before the 2.0 beta came out, I never really ended up using her because she didn't seem (to me; this is only my opinion!) to have the flexibility of the likes of Zoraida. As you mention in your post, the ability of Nephilim to push models around synergises really well with both the likes of Tots and the new Lilith. The whole crew seems built to work off each other and the Lilith boxed set is the only new box I'm looking forward to buying; I certainly want to try chucking helpless Guild plebs into a swarm of ravenous Tots. As someone who can't bring themself to proxy anything, I'm going to be teleporting Taelor around until then.

Lady Justice's Greatsword is one of the most beautiful things I've seen in any game. In M2E I was a little concerned about LJ losing her Undead-specific abilities, although I'd never played her against Undead in 1.5. When my housemate picked her up and used them against me in my first game with Seamus, the realisation that it cancels out HtW was pretty amazing. A feature that is good against any model but particularly addresses a feature of a "preferred enemy" is surely pretty good design. Would you mind going into this in a little more detail? Coming from a MtG background I'm always interested in this sort of thing, but can't really see how it would work in practise. I understand that seeing the Red Joker multiple times would be very strong and that holding low cards would cause more high cards to be flipped during the turn, but how does this balance out with seeing the Black Joker multiple times and not being able to Cheat as effectively? This and the lower number of turns to build a hand along with Masters relying much more on cards now makes the prospect seem more unattractive to me.

Only if she gets positioned right, I'm afraid. First time I tried, I sent Taelor after the wrong target; she got her (wo)man, but found herself woefully out of position for the rest of the game. Too much playing off the table rather than on the table led to my 13SS invincible model never taking a single hit. Hopefully using Lilith to drop her in place will make her much more threatening!

The gentleman didn't compare two editions, he compared the flexibility of a single Master and a tiny model pool over two editions. It was a nice framing device to open the post, not starting a "WAR". He then proceeded to name six different tactics that Lilith can throw out on the table, so the focus was certainly on Lilith's capabilities. Personally, I've been trying to think of ways to avoid the 3SS Alraune tax on Lilith, and rather than coming up with specific combos or lists I've been trying to remain flexible; it's more difficult to Theoryfaux effectively now than it was in times past. Illusionary Forest seems a must, as it can completely block LOS (and so enemy Auras!), slow enemy movement and provide cover to Neverborn Shooting. With this in mind, I'd take a Beckoner or two and keep them as an effectively immovable shooting force with Lilith's support. The Beckoners also provide Lure, and Wicked Mistress is essentially another Lure. It's in, and so's Teddy; he can happily Flurry once an enemy has been yanked across the entire board. Finally, Lilith doesn't seem to be putting out too much damage if she's busy controlling enemy models and throwing up Forests. Let's give her a partner to actually kill things that get Lured somewhere other than to Teddy. Taelor's coming along with Nexus of Power and Fears Given Form; Nexus of Power makes Taelor near-unkillable (Hard to Kill stops the attack killing her, Nexus puts her back up to 3 Wounds if she spent a SS in defense) and Fears Given Form is a hilarious answer to potential objective stealers and swarm lists. Lilith can use Tangle Shadows and Transfixing Gaze to drop her wherever necessary. My housemate and I have been playing at 50SS. I'm not going to speculate on a whole list (to my mind it's near-meaningless without seeing the actual terrain and Strategy for each side, not to mention the Scheme pool), but here's the "core" Crew that I've suggested; Lilith (Beckon Malifaux, Wicked Mistress) -1SS Taelor (Fears Given Form, Nexus of Power) 13 SS Teddy 11 SS 2x Beckoners 14SS 5-7SS in pocket, 8-6SS extra models.

Sadly, Mr Sirlin has little to say on the topic of Teddy rampaging around the board tearing apart terrified foes before being put down by a thrown chair to the face. Thus, his teachings can hardly be applied to Malifaux wholesale. That being said, I'm very proud to be playing a game that could inspire such detailed analysis.

Illusionary Forest support from Lilith? to everyone shooting at him is pretty insane, assuming that he's got a halfway decent Df.

Thanks a lot for the review and all of its detail; I for one had never thought about adding the larger numbers for Crew costs, but a GW background gets you used to large numbers anyhow =/ I'll certainly bear it in mind when demoing the game. As far as I understand it, the open beta for Book 2 Masters begins September (or in or around then). This covers all 1.5 models not already covered, with Leveticus going around the block again for some more testing before final release. It's not going to be a case of playing those Masters in a year or so; hopefully we're talking weeks.

What Starter Boxes did you buy? At the minute the starters that don't have 2.0 rules are Dreamer, Collodi, McCabe, Hoffman, Lucius, Kaeris, Collette, Kirai, Yan Lo and Hamelin. All of these will be going into open beta after the release of Book 1, and if you're playing during that time you'll be able to actually have a say in how the models' rules turn out, not to mention provide valuable insight as a new player just entering the game. I believe their official rules will be out in January, but until then you'll actually have the opportunity to play with them for free. If you don't have any of those boxes, you can play M2E right now with the free beta rules. The rules systems are similar in terms of the basic mechanics of flipping cards, turn order and such. However, they have a very different "feel" in my opinion. Bearing in mind that this is just my individual view, M1.5 took a fair bit of prior reading and relied specific model combos and activation sequences in order to play a Crew efficiently, whereas M2.0 sort of lays things out on the table for you and makes your mind work within the game more than outside. In keeping with this, the format and contents of models' stat cards has changed to the point where the two editions' cards are not compatible. If you're still up for listening to personal advice, I'd suggest reading through the 1.5 book's fluff and starting to play games of 2.0 with the beta rules. If it's just you trying to get friends hooked, 2.0 means they can play without having to memorise as many "niche" rules and terms as in 1.5. If you've got a 1.5 veteran to guide you through then by all means try 1.5, but if you're going for it on your own you want to be struggling with as few difficulties as possible. Still, don't try planning too much right now. Take a look at the beta rules and cards, and when your stuff arrives take a look at the 1.5 rules and cards. See which suits you and your playgroup better, but remember that 1.5 won't be getting much Wyrd support at all from now on.

And now I feel myself needing to play a game of Battletech. With my box and rules being on a different island entirely. Thanks a bloody lot.

Not to interrupt, but I'm not sure that discussion on the podcast itself-the topic of the thread-was quite done. Having clearly stated that you knew the last thread on your chosen topic was locked, would you mind taking it to a new thread to get locked over there? I'd rather this one remain open.

Actually, as the rules stand you couldn't do any of those things even if Zoraida did have Hex. None of the mentioned models have been released, for a start. However, as Mike mentioned, you can now do things like spending 3AP on Obey and seeing how many conditions you can stack on the Voodoo Doll and its linked enemy. You've clearly got a great deal of imagination and flexibility in terms of what you can do with just one Ability. Now you have more flexible tools to get those kinds of combos going off with the rest of your Crew. I know you feel differently, but I'm putting Zoraida down on the table and revelling in her new options, and can't wait to see what stuff comes up in the next wave of models.

This. All of this.

I'd entirely agree with you in terms of Zoraida herself, in fact of the (few) Masters I've played she's the only one who doesn't feel to me like she's really changed. However, I'd point out that Summon Voodoo Doll is now very different, simply because the Voodoo Doll himself is now very different. Instead of some sort of static point for Zoraida herself to work around, he comes with very different abilities and very different play.

Bloody hell, no. Please, please, just no.

The difference is that Blood Bowl isn't a game that GW intended to continue to make rules for. It's not like there was going to be a new edition or new models anytime soon. In addition, GW distributed rules (and stats iirc, but in Blood Bowl the two were bundled) for their Specialist Games for free online anyway. GW had a situation where they were discontinuing company support for the game but wanted to keep the option to sell what miniatures they had. Fans offered to update rules for the game, and GW said "yes" to a few select people who were prominent in the community. While I can't speak as to the details of Blood bowl production, I have been privy to fans trying to develop Inquisitor 2.0, and getting permission for even that was really difficult. Bear in mind that these weren't just dedicated fans, one of them had managed to get his work into a Black Library book. The two situations aren't really comparable; in GW's case they were trying to get rid of the last few models for a game that they were discontinuing, and keeping their ruleset alive for free gave some protection against the production of identical "Fantasy Football" games by other companies. In Wyrd's case, there's a new edition with new models being produced that they want people to be playing. Looking at all the content that he has released, his eagerness to become a Henchman and get involved in playtesting and his reaction when Wyrd's relationship with and responses to his advice changed, can it really be said that Bill Anderson at least won't try to grow Malifaux Classic as much as humanly possible?

Think you'll find that's "alter and then reproduce and publicly distribute". Just like PullMyFinger wasn't allowed to publish full stats for every model, Malifaux Classic surely wouldn't be allowed to publish 1.5 stats for every model alongside errata changes. What Wyrd is being asked for is to put their stamp of approval on a ruleset that they themselves won't be developing, that will give out for free published material that Wyrd has put a price on and that will potentially divide the playerbase of new customers to the game. If people want to modify 1.5 and play it in their gaming groups, it's fine; that's what's been done throughout 1.5's history. If people want to release the 1.5 rules and stats publicly online then Wyrd is perfectly entitled not to give the project the thumbs-up.

I think you'll find that that happened a long time ago, actually. Book 2 had a pretty massive impact on the game and playing styles and Crews now are nearly unrecognisable from then.

It's strange, isn't it Walking into the shops and seeing those 4-disk boxed sets You'd think that nowadays they could put the extras on the disks of the films themselves, rather than filling a whole different one with them? I don't know if you're like me, but I never end up putting the Extras disk into the player.

I take your point that they weren't going to refuse to sell M2E cards separate from the models, but Wyrd already has a service to sell cards for models you don't have. It would be no effort for them to stick with that model. I'm simply saying that, as a UK player with an existing collection, I appreciate being able to buy them off shop shelves. I'm also saying that Wyrd won't be making much money off them and that sales will drop extremely rapidly after M2E's initial release. While we're talking about what's "patently insane", are you aware of any of those companies with card-based miniatures games releasing said cards for free? It's not a falsehood, and what you are saying supports my point. To my knowledge, Wyrd has only released free PDFs of the statcards that have undergone errata changes. If Wyrd had any intention of giving all their model rules away for free, they could have done it alongside those errata'd statcards for zero extra cost to them. They did not. As I said above, my opinion of Wyrd's inner workings is irrelevant, but Wyrd is not presenting M2E rules as some kind of apology as they did with the errata'd 1.5 cards. Not to mention that those rules were released long after the books that the models came in; I'm aware that this is the nature of an errata anyway, but those PDFs couldn't possibly harm book sales. Releasing the full model line's rules for free will harm book sales.

This is, of course, entirely true. I wouldn't even agree that 2.0 has dealt with all 1.5's problems as it stands, in fact. However, Wyrd's statement that they intend to balance the game Master to master gives me a lot of hope. Faction balance was a concept that made things harder for newcomers and could have been leveraged to make quite a bit of money. At the very least, seeing Wyrd state that their *intent* is to get rid of it makes me happier.

I'd suggest that you are exaggerating here. I haven't seen anyone on the forums say that Malifaux 1.5 was a "terrible" game. However, with the previous cards, one or two of my friends who were dyslexic did not even consider playing the game. When doing demo games with friends, I always felt restricted in what Masters and Minions I could use in order to get across the basic concepts without burying people under niche abilities. People would walk over to see the fantastic models and be delighted, then would pick up a stat card. It's certainly true that some thrived on that sense of complexity, but a lot of others got a false impression and turned away. When I first started Malifaux, I was in London in the summer before moving away from uni. Knowing nothing about the game, I grabbed the Dreamer because I loved what I read on the back of the box. Thinking it would be nice to have two sides that could be used to demo the game or combined into a bigger Crew, and loving the idea of a child with his toys, I also bought Collodi. Also Doppelganger for the model. I read over the rules, listened to a podcast or two to get a sense of the game, and assembled the models. I didn't get my first game until later, living in an area with little wargaming. The guy had played before, and he was using Nicodem. I won that game with the Slingshot, and kept winning. We didn't have many games, but I think the guy won or drew only one of them. The person in question is now a Henchman for that area, but I believe that his continuation with the game is down to his determination and personal love for the game's abstract concepts as much as the execution of Malifaux in reality. As you say, over 90% of the people here are here because of 1.0 or 1.5, but the people who have been turned away from the old game aren't represented. I am not saying that Malifaux 1.5 is terrible, and indeed have heard nobody on these forums say that. However, for a new player or a player on a budget it had issues. I have always seen "faction balance" as a high-minded concept that has had serious negative impact on the game (introducing Kirai when people had been building collections around Seamus or Nicodem was not acceptable in my eyes, nor is the concept of having people buy more models in order to make their Crew playable against another particular Master). The reason you did not hear as many complaints on forums is that a) the people who hated those concepts had left the game and Wyrd had already made the decisions and built their game, so people like myself got on with it and kept playing Malifaux. Now I see Wyrd moving away from some of the concepts that I do not like, and so I will be overjoyed to be able to demo 2.0 instead of 1.5 when playing with my friends. "Buy any of the starter boxes you like the look of, you can play balanced games just by expanding on that box" will be something that I can say truthfully. Malifaux 1.5 did not "become terrible" once 2.0 was launched; we've merely been taught by Wyrd that they have seen some of the problems and that we don't need to play around them any more.

Not that my opinion is particularly relevant, but Wyrd seems to be gearing M2E very much towards bringing in newer players. At the moment, the vast majority of product on shelves is V1.5. Gencon will have a few boxes, certainly, but Wave 1 alone accounts for 21 Master boxed sets and a great number of other boxes. There's going to be a long transition period before all current 1.5 product is replaced with 2E plastics, and new players aren't really going to wait. This means a long period where people are going to be buying 1.5 product and will need 2E cards. Assuming Wyrd does not release the rules for free, this means that new players will have to buy cards via Arsenal decks. It has been stated by Wyrd that these will be priced as reasonably as possible, however in order to get the full range of cards players will need to pay that price multiplied by seven, and that price would presumably not be spent on product that would fetch Wyrd more profit. However, most anyone playing M2E is going to be getting the main rulebook, and that will contain all of the rules for the models anyway. Just as someone receiving a free PDF would be likely to print and laminate the cards for tabletop use, the same could be done with photographed pages of the rulebook for essentially an equal amount of effort. People could also just flick from page to page. Ultimately, while cards are nice, they're not absolutely required for play. Wyrd also has the option to repack existing V1.5 boxed sets at least with V2 cards. The Arsenal Boxes are a product that is almost entirely for the convenience of people like me, with a preexisting collection of models, and as Wyrd replaces metal models with V2 plastics the worth of Arsenal Boxes will vanish. Wyrd isn't known for making products that they know will become useless. That they are willing to take this step for the sakes of oldtime players is, for me, very significant in terms of their willingness to support us. Meanwhile, releasing the free PDFs would have negative consequences as well. Ultimately, model rules belong to Wyrd, and they have consistently made the decision to have us pay for the rules that we use. Throughout 1.5, model rules have been bought directly from Wyrd with the models themselves, as individual cards or in books; I personally have no issue with paying for the rules that I use. Having clearly decided that being paid for their rules work is important, I would imagine that Wyrd intends to continue this trend. If Wyrd decides to give us a free PDF for Waves 1 and 2, new players are going to be confused and upset if Wyrd later turns around and says "we're releasing a new book, and we would like you to pay for the rules please". If Wyrd decides to make all models' rules available for free even after Wave 2, then the rules exclusivity of the books themselves will be lost. Speaking personally, I only own Book 3 of Malifaux and the Rules Manual. If I had a full free preview of all models anyway, I would not have bought Book 3. A company that leans on its miniatures and wargaming rules is going to be hard pressed also selling glorified short story compilations. Ultimately, I can't see Wyrd putting out a free PDF of model rules. They've offered a product for people with collections of older models, they have solidly protected their Malifaux models' rules throughout the company's history and giving out rules for free could harm future book sales.

I'm somewhat hesitant about posting in this thread and even more hesitant about asking questions personally, but something's been niggling at me a little. Nix, there are certain aspects of the more technical comments that you made in the podcast that I'd very much agree with. A few of these come in the form of critisisms of particular rules, often of the niche variety. I'm thinking about things like the loss of Towards/Directly Towards and issues with the Disengaging Strike rule. (Reading the rules again, I'm not certain that the Disengaging Strikes rule as written works how you say it does, but it serves as an example.) I'm aware that you have been involved from the playtest from a very early stage, and that I have no idea what went on there beyond very general terms, and that what I'm asking about is really none of my business. However, seeing such a list of issues when there's nothing more to be done in terms of repairing them is somewhat upsetting to me, having brought up issues with rules and models that have often been resolved to (sometimes beyond) my satisfaction. Is there any reason that we are (or I am) only seeing this list of issues now, when they can no longer be discussed usefully in public? It may be that they were all brought up on these forums and I simply didn't read those posts, and it's definitely the case that other people in the beta could have noticed and posted issues, so the onus is hardly on you in particular. Nevertheless, a little more detail on this would take some small weight off my mind. I certainly haven't the right to know details or to assume what actions on your part would be correct, and I'm sure that a portion of the playability of the game is yours as much as or more than any other beta tester. It just saddens me to see concrete issues that I or others could have been working on while it still would have made a difference.