Shadai

The cake is a lie

Easy Odin. My man CRC is agreeing with you. No need to get irritated.

No, that's incorrect. The damage was dealt on the attack, thus triggering Onslaught. The fact that it was healed after the fact is not important. The only way it would not trigger is if you flipped that Red Joker as SS action to PREVENT the damage. Since Red Joker prevents all = attack causes no damage = no damage caused to defender for the attack = no trigger for Onslaught.

In that context you are very much correct. However, the entire package is the reason you bring it, Colette is very much a hit-and-run army. And when you think about it in that context, a piece with that kind of mobility and support being able to do that 8-10 is almost overpowered when you really figure out how to use it. For 14 points it could always hit harder. However, to make it beefier in the damage profile would probably cost it all of its difficult-to-pin-down, quick moving tricks and essentially turn it into a steamborg or killjoy. That's all fine and dandy, but it's not how Colette plays.

Not sure if serious..... You do realize they get a free push on a hit with a trigger that is easy to get and/or set up right? Or the fact I can move in and attack the the cost of only 1 point? Let's see, my Duet is 10" away. (0) action to Sword Dance, 1 AP to move, oh look, your in melee range, free strike, strike again with my second AP, strike again with my fast AP... oh look, 4" push trigger. That's... hold on, a starting range of 10", 3 attacks, and I finish 5" away from you. You were saying something about not being able to do that?? EDIT: Actually now that I'm thinking about it, you can interrupt your move at any time to make a free strike then continue movement. So actually, start 10" away, sword dance, move and strike for 1 ap, strike for 1 ap, move (striking first) get trigger, push 4", continue moving 9" on fast ap. Laugh at the look on your opponents face as you start 10" away and end up with a full attack round and now 14" out.

See? I'm misunderstanding a ruling that these 6 rules Marshalls have patiently tried to explain to me. Clearly, I must be wrong. After all, 6 Rules Marshalls have already made the ruling. I mean, healthy debates are bad for the game. 6 people told me so!

You know what, you're right. I don't care anymore. Every other Avatar gets to do exactly nothing on turn 2 when they manifest, yet you all are arguing aViks gets a full round of actions. That's fine. Play against it a few times and then come back and tell me how "fair" that game was. But I don't have a horse in this race, I don't play aViks (yet, but seeing how OP they are I'm going to start now) and I haven't played against them. So you're correct. I don't care anymore. Forget I said anything. I'm clearly wrong cause you all are so incredibly right. Sorry for wasting everyone's time.

Again. Please go read the Replace rules. You aren't just replacing one model. You are replacing both. Regardless of how its worded on the card, you are still replacing 2 models with 1. This is how this had been ruled in the past. For consistency, it has to continue to be ruled in this fashion. I can say you are replacing both because A) the replace rules say so, Effects transfer as well as AP, and C) even though the wording is slightly different, the effect is the same... you are moving from 2 models to 1.

Let me help. Honestly. The "I want to prove this is the most overpowered Avatar AND justify its overpoweredness" is just insane. You are right CunningStunt. And I actually like you. The card does say it. But the card is also subject to the Replace rules. I don't care how you think you are getting around it. It is still subject to the Replace rules. Here, let me help: You are soooo close. Here, allow me to fix it. It says "replace one Viktoria with Viktoria, avatar of slaughter. Remove the other Viktoria from the game." And while Coryphees dance together says "Sacrifice this model and one other friendly coryphee within 2". replace this model with one coryphee duet before it is removed from play." See it yet? It's the same thing. The exact same thing. Replace one, get rid of the other. It doesn't matter how it has been gotten rid of, just that its gone. HOWEVER Both models are still affected by the replace rule, always have been, always will be. When you combine the Coryphees, you don't get the unspent actions of the Coryphee that hasn't acted. You don't get "another" go. You transfer any effects from both onto the Duet. This has always been how this has been rule, this will continue to be how it is ruled. Again, I'm sorry you don't like the rule. But the Replace rule has been in the rulebook the entire time. I'll put it another way. When you combine the Coryphees, you are going from two models to one right? Subject by replace? Then they are affected by the Replace rules. We all know this. Now, you have two Viks, right? You are going from.... wait for it.... two models... to one.... right? Subject to replace? Then they too are affected by the Replace rules. Why should it be any different?

Just in case someone thought they got 2 AP from the "unused" Vik, 2 AP from the Avatar activating, and 2 AP for melee expert. I suppose I should edit that to say 4-6, but I think you get the point. That is correct. And, as I point out, I'm pretty sure that is the intent of the designers. You can never tell which one is the real Vik. It makes it nice but not completely and totally overpowered. But I do understand how its worded. Its been pointed out to me several times in this thread alone. What you are missing is that regardless of which one you "choose" to replace, you are replacing both models by the Replace rule. And as such, you continue the activation with what actions you have left with both models. Since the unused Vik hasn't technically acted in the chain, it provides 0 AP, and since the "active" Vik used an (All) action, that means the Avatar has used an (All) action. And by definition, that means the Avatar cannot do any other actions until the next turn. This has been the case forever and a day. Even in the Coryphee example, people wanted to think, well if I companion both Coryphee and use the first one to merge into the other, then I get a full round of actions because the other Coryphee hasn't gone yet. And that answer has been a consistent no. You are trying to choose which model you replace because you think the card tells you to. In reality, you are choosing where to place the Avatar, but you are still replacing both models per the Replace rule. Its like trying to combine one Coryphee into another one with slow. You want to think, "but the second one is buried!!! that slow doesn't transfer!!" but alas, it does, and has ruled as such multiple times. You don't get to choose. When you Replace, you take all the AP, Wounds and Effects on all of the models you're replacing and apply them to the Avatar. I'm sorry you don't like the rule. But if you want to change it, believe me, as a Colette player, I would LOVE to combine to the Duet and get a full round of actions on first turn. Yosh has it 100% right. It seems they worded it that way for placement, so you didn't have to do some funky-ass things just to get that Avatar in position. Granted it could have been better worded, but then again I don't think Wyrd was really looking at the literal wording and what it meant.

Alright, let me try to defend my position with the rules to back it up. First of all, exhibit A (p38): I've bolded the important parts, be sure to fully understand them before moving on to Exhibit B (p32): Again, the important parts are bold. So what does this mean? Well it means that when you replace two models with one, all of the effects transfer with it. This has been ruled the case on multiple occasions. Thus, (using the Coryphee -> Duet as an example) if one of the Coryphee is affected by something, when the combine, the Duet becomes affected by it as well. So for example, if you have linked your mannequin to one of the Coryphee, the Duet retains the link even if the link was on the Coryphee you buried. Furthermore, it works the same if one of your Coryphee was somehow affected with slow. When you combine them, the Duet gets slow, regardless of which Coryphee was combining or was buried. So what does that mean with the Viks and the Avatar? Well, quite simply, to manifest on turn 2 requires an (All) action. And while the (badly worded, imho) card does say to choose, you are still combining an unused Vik and a Vik that used an (All) action. Which the Avatar, following the Replace rules gains the remaining AP of all the replaced models. In this case, because the one you chose hasn't activated yet, it contributes 0 and the other has done an (All) action. Which means, by the Replace rules, the Avatar has performed an (All) action as well. This is because the Avatar continues the activation with what AP you have left. BUT WAIT, I can see you already flexing your fingers to type. But I'm not choosing the Vik that did the (All) action. I'm choosing the other one! The card says the other one gets discarded! It does indeed. Well done, rules lawyer. However, the Replace rules are quite clear that the replaced model suffers the same effects that are currently affecting ALL of the replaced models, in this case, both. Additionally, that model continues its activation using any available AP of ALL models, which it has none, since it used an (All) action. The other Vik contributes 0 AP?? But I'm companioning, and they both activate simultaneously! Indeed you are. And if you actually read the rules for Simultaneous activations (its page 31, if you are curious) you'll note that while they "activate" at the same time, they don't actually "activate" until you nominate the model from the group, complete its entire activation before moving to the next. You don't get to companion the Viks and have 4 AP to spend between the two. You nominate one, use 2 General AP and melee master if needed, then nominate the second, which gets 2 AP and melee master. Just by saying "I'm using companion on both Viks" does not suddenly and magically grant you 4 AP to spend however you wish. You don't get the model's 2 AP until you declare the previous model in the chain is done, and now it's this models turn. So in the case of pikachu and "I choose the un-activated Vik" to replace, well, unactivated Vik provides a whopping 0 AP at the moment, even if she wasn't hampered by the other Vik using the (All) action. So no, the Avatar suddenly does not get 6 AP. This holds true even if you wait longer in the manifest clock so you avoid the (All) penalty.

Well, no need to get snotty. My apologies for not having the book open in front of me. I bow to your rulebook-fu. But you cannot seriously think that your interpretation is the one they intended. Wyrd currently and in the past have used some interesting word selections, we all get worked up about it here on the forums "BUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT DOESN'T DO WHAT IT SAYS????" whambulance whambulance, rinse repeat. So let me get this straight. Because she doesn't specifically SAY replace the acting Vik (which I'm pretty sure that's what they intended), you get to activate one, replace the other one with the Avatar, then IMMEDIATELY spring 4 actions of Avatar Vik all over your opponents face. Yeah, that's fair. Of course, all the other avatars can do the same... oh wait, THEY CAN'T. Not on turn 2 with an (all) action. But hey, replacing 2 models with 1 right. Clearly the literal interpretation is correct.

I'm pretty sure it works like the Coryphee combining to form Voltron. So, the activation continues with the replaced model. Or in other words, not it the way OP seems to hope it works. In the OP's example: First turn, satisfy the first requirement. Second turn, companion both Viks, use the first vik as the all action to manifest End your turn with them cause you're done. Technically you would get the remaining actions if any of the replaced model, but since you are using an (all) action, you have no remaining actions. So what can you do, and how does it really work (assuming it works like the Duet). It's a standard replace, so what you can do is companion both viks and use the first vik to do whatever with her 2 AP and melee expert, then activate the second vik to perform the (all) action. What you seem to think you can do is "choose" which model it replaces, which you don't get to do. When you replace, you replace the "active" model, or in this case, the model that did the manifest. You can't nominate the second vik as the one you're replacing so you get all of her unused AP. From the rulebook, when you're replacing you only get the AP of the active model that is being replaced, not any other model. So, like in the case of the Duet, if you spend an action on the first Coryphee to form Voltron, you don't get the AP of the Coryphee that hasn't activated yet. This is regardless of how you activated them (or even if you companion the two of them with a Mannequin). I see no reason why the Viks avatar would work any differently.

Essence of Power is a definite must buy. It's a huge help to make 'tina's spells hit really really hard. I can't really speak about the Snow Storm or Ice Golem, as I don't have any experience with those models. However, I can tell you 2 Silent Ones are totally worth it as they are essentially upgraded versions of the Ice Gamin. I also like packing at least one Gunsmith. That model is just so versatile its sickening. It's great against many low wound guys, its great against armor, its great in both melee and ranged. Especially armor. Nothing screws me up so fast as armor in a tina crew it seems like, unless I get really lucky on multiple uses the 2 damage (0) action spell. But my luck is never that good.

See, the problem with using Union Miners is while they have the surprise factor and such, they really aren't more effective as an objective grabber as the girls. There is just sooo much synergy when using the girls that they move around the board as fast as light. And worse for the miner, since the bury fix they've lost the ability to be serious assassins as well. Really if you want to get away from the girls you should include Johan and perhaps think about Joss in that list. But then you get away from what makes the Showgirls tick... you know, girls. Honestly, the Coryphee are an intricate part of the girls crew. They are lightning quick, and perfect for the hit-and-run squad tactics the girls favor. Without them, the girls slow down significantly. The problem is people have a tendency to think in Duet only. Like some others have commented in this thread, the Duet is a big target but it can be taken down. But with its speed an inability to be pinned down, there should be no reason you ever let it get into that position in the first place. And if you do, Colette is there to pull its bacon out of the fire with a swap. It doesn't have to stay together the entire game. I've split the Duet back into twin Coryphee so many times for objective grabbing and kiting/squad splitting tactics. Because you'll face one of two opponents. Those that are just going to leave it alone, or those that are going to throw everything at it to kill it. And when you dangle it in front of that more common second player, then pull the rug out with a switch and a split.... they get all excited because they think it is now really vulnerable. In reality, you're hoping the split their forces trying to chase the both, or, even better, they over commit to one side of the board or other. Either way, you win with more switch, splits, and Sword Dance pushes. It's just a real rules intensive model that in order to play really effectively you have to grasp not just the Duet rules, but the single Coryphee as well.

Well your question is which would you take and why, but the title is more like a statement of in this battle which would you take. You seem to want answers as to what master to take, but you are doing it in the Arcanist forum, we're obviously (mostly) bias. So I don't know what you are really after. Each master plays a bit differently, but if you are going as 'tina Vs Sonia theortical matchup, well Sonia is going to win that the majority of the time. The reason being is Sonia (like all guild masters) is specifically designed to counter an entire faction. That's not to say someone from that faction can't win, but it's difficult because they counter your strengths and exploit your weaknesses so well. For example, Sonia is kinda a 8!^@# because she counters spells stupid easy and most of her minons have an anti-magic aura that gives a fat negative to spell flips. Arcanists cast spells. Negative flip means no cheating. Yeah, if you're playing a spell heavy crew against that kind of power its going to be a long day for you. That being said, Arcanists do have access to some models that can be used to help avoid Sonia's overbearing spell cancelling aura.... that is, models that don't cast spells. So when you asked what would you take and why, I suggested Gunsmiths. They have range, hard to kill, and do a ton of damage that doesn't rely on spells. But if you want the pro's and con's of the individual model, I would suggest asking about Sonia in the Guild-specific forum, and Raspy here.

Gunsmiths.... Lots of gunsmiths

I was under the impression that you got to pick your trigger. Overpower is automatically triggered on cast, so it prevents you from choosing another trigger since by the rules you can only have 1 trigger per duel result. And taking a harder look at her card it does say automatically, and not "MAY" automatically. So Kadeton has it right in that since Overpower is the trigger, you can't have another one. As for A, you declare triggers as soon as you finalize your duel total, in this case, the casting total. Overpower is auto triggered AFTER the target fails the resist total... so I can see where the confusion is. Theoretically, I suppose you could announce Surge if you snagged another tome in the casting, and if the target resists you get Surge, and if he fails you get Overpower. As far as I know, Overpower even as a "freebie" still counts toward the one trigger per cast thing, so your B point is wrong as you expected. I'm kind of curious as to if the theory is true.... now I've confused myself. (EDIT: WOW it had my last post. So I thought all that got erased. So here's what I wrote instead of all that above this Edit in order to try and make more sense.) okay so I wrote out an entire response that got deleted. And then I pasted over it. With nothing. So cliff notes version here. Basically, Kadeton I think has it right. However, what I'm wondering is how it works. You declare triggers after the duel total is finalized but before the resist when casting spells. So theoretically, it happens in this order: 1. initial flip and total 2. cheat if necessary 3. SS if need/want 4. Total numbers/suits 5. Declare triggers (STOP. Now, Overpower triggers on something entirely different then Surge. Let's just say for the sake of argument that you have a tome somewhere in that total, which would normally trigger Surge. Overpower cannot be declared as the trigger since you don't have the suit requirement AND on the card it says "Overpower is automatically triggered AFTER the defender loses the resist duel." See where I'm going with this?) 6. Defender resist initial flip 7. Defender cheat if want/need 8. Defender SS if possible, want/need 9. Compare totals Only here is where you find out if the defender "resists" the spell or not, and therefore whether or not Overpower triggers. So I guess the question is not just "do both triggers count?" but "What happens when you have a trigger like Surge then the defender fails the resist?" Does Overpower overwrite the Surge? Or does Surge stay since that's what you declared? Furthermore, what happens if you trigger Surge but the defender resists? Technically you successfully cast the spell...

So only Df resists? So if Colette gets into a Magician's Duel with Justice (melee spell, range of 3, goes against Ca) then Justice can't riposte right?

Each effect is completely resolved before moving onto the next one, I believe. As far as "what happens first" I think in the case of multiple triggers happening on one event is up to whoever is the active player at the moment. .... but I am not a rules marshall.

If you could add me to the list please. We're starting to get a pretty decent scene here. Amazing really, this game sells itself. I show people how to play, and they are like, wow cool, and toddle off to buy some. Anyway, Shadai, and I'm located in Lansing, Michigan. Thanks!

I get the search function on these boards doesn't work very well, but sheesh... we have like 3 or 4 Colette advice threads on the front Arcanist page as it is. And oddly enough if you read them all, they offer all the same advice! I'm gonna echo what Shut Up just said in that the first list is the "standard" Colette list, if anything is really "standard" in this game. Her crew is tricky, and wrapping your head around the basics is just what you need to do before tossing in curveballs like Angelica and Johan into the mix.

You are actually better off in every way to bring a performer over Angelica, in almost every game, every scenario. Angelica, while bring some interesting "tricks" to the table is not what I would consider a good model. In fact, I'll skip her everytime and bring something else. Which is sad really, because I like her sculpt. But the Performer brings something very important to the Colette crew which is a mannequin. And you can do lots of cool crap with one of those over a nifty "that's nice" trick Angelica brings. When you bring a performer, you get the mani for free (a bargin considering how costly/hard it is to get that mani trigger of Colette's). Really that list needs a couple of Coryphee's. I get they are pricey, but once you start to really tick with the Duet, Cassie and Colette, you'll start to wonder if you every really need anything else. There is just so much synergy between the Duet and Cassie its almost hampering to one if you don't bring the other. Like I would not consider bringing the Duet unless I had Cassie and vice-versa. By themselves they just cost way too many soulstones to bring to a field where I could only realistically use half of their abilities. But if you really want to suprise your opponent, bring along Johan. When you tell him you're going to get Johan into raping postion and there is nothing he can do to stop you he'll be surprised. When you do it, he'll cry. Disappearing Act is so funny. Plus, Johan is 5 SS's for Colette, which is the same amount you'll spend on Angelica. The difference is Johan is so worth his 5 SS's where Angelica is situational at best.

meh, I don't really find the fire gamin that useful for the large price of 4 SS. When I got my Kaeris for my Colette/Tina army I skipped buying the set. And really at the time it had more to do with how much money was in my pocket then anything else. The box was $40 with Kaeris, 2 Gunsmiths, 3 Fire Gamin. When I broke down individual cost, it was way cheaper to get the models I really needed then pop for the box. I needed Kaeris ($10.50) and the two gunsmiths ($9.00 each) which came to $28.50 instead of the price of the box. Granted, the 3 pack of Gamin are $18.00, so the box saves you about $6.50, but those "savings" were moot to me when I considered I didn't need the Fire Gamin in the first place. So instead, I used my $11.50 in savings buying individually to get me a sweet EoP, which is way more useful then overpriced Fire Gamin. I walked out of the store spending less then the box, and got the exact models I needed to supplement my Tina/Colette armies. Of course, ymmv. But then again, I was getting Kaeris not to run by himself, but to add to my current armies.

It works the same way. You spend 1 AP, dance apart, then you have however many AP left to split among the models. When you split, you decide which model gets what wounds and effects, etc. Then, once that is done, both are still "activated" so you can immediately move, attack, etc with what points and zero actions you have left. For example, if you split first thing on the turn with your fast action, you still have 2 AP to split among the two models. So one model can have 2 AP, or both can have one each.