schristofersen

True. It would be a waif. Still Magicpockets has accurately pointed out that entropic transformation is not a question here. What is a question is if necrotic unmaking creates a rat, or a SPA. Using his logic it is not possible for both to occur. The other question for Leveticus is if he gives blessings of desolation to a model and it kills an enemy does it create a SPA or a rat. It looks like the same question, but i'm certain someone will claim there is a distinctive difference and it goes back to the previous threads issue with wicked dolls as well, and other members of the Leveticus crew such as A&D/SPA. It is fairly important as it has already been stated they are looking at Hamelin and balance. This ruling should have some impact on that discussion as well. It may not even be an issue if they have knowledge of changes to voracious rats we are not privy to.

That tool is really neat. Thanks for that. I already have a one inch tray that came with one of my sabol bags i'm planning on using for stuff like rats and counters but otherwise I concur that its pretty rubbish. I do have NM LCB and Nekima but I suspect i'll not be using Nekima for quite a while until either her rules change or more nephelim come out. I've been looking at the battle foam products (especially the Malifaux bag) but find their trays seem a bit spendy for what you get and the bag is looking a bit small to carry the amount of figs I want for variety in crew selection these days. That said the bag is really nice and the trays do seem quality. If I didn't already have several Sabol bags for other games and a bunch of foam trays I would be more interested.

so it has been over a year since this thread was put into the "resolved" rules section. http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?19472-Dolls-vs-Rats/page3 was it resolved officially someplace I missed? I've tried to search for it and wade through a ton of pages of posts but perhaps my search Fu is weak. Ratty did make a "it seems to me" type answer in the thread but seemed to be feeling it out logically. If Leveticus casts one of his SPA creating spells on a rat does he get a SPA, a rat, or both as a result? While we are at it... same question casting at a stolen...unless that dilutes my post and results i a "only ask one question here" response, in which case the first question should be taken as the only important question and i'll take it up again about the stolen as it is slightly different.

+1 although i've already got his crew. I just really like the twisting fates picture and would love an alt.

I've had the good fortune to play on the graveyard board and think it is pretty amazing. I do wonder how you intend the terrain to factor into the game. Were you thinking the gravestones should be height 1 or 2? and is the intent to give partial cover when between height 2 models? I am finding my own graveyard board to be pretty... but not very interesting when it comes to game play interaction and thus i'm curious what other people are doing to make their terrain more of a factor in the game.

This seems like a handy place to ask how people utilize the pick apart foam on these. I find 2x2 sections not large enough and 3x3 okay but makes for a significant amount of space in the tray that isn't utilized... which irritates me. How are you utilizing the pick aparts and are there other kinds of trays that work better that will still go in the sabol bags like the double wide motor pool bag?

I can't believe how many times I was April firsted this year. Mission accomplished indeed! Now if think geek can just be convinced to make that cool spell casting hoodie...

Yeah I think you should use whatever works for you. There really shouldn't be "A list" as this is Malifaux. Really you shouldn't even have "A master" but rather "A faction". But not everyone can have all the models You could always just replace the watcher with another SPA. I think its a fine list either way. I have found A&D to be a beast and worth its points. I know other people think it is not. YMMV I DO think that being able to make Levi mobile is amazingly good as he can really take out most models (including masters) in one activation if he has range and all his AP so being able to move him 10 inches with dead rider is something you might want to consider if you don't like A&D.

Your sense of humor is starting to grow on me. But seriously... I see some ridiculousness still exists with daydreams/dreamer/LCB but I agree with the idea that ridiculously powerful (read soon to get the cuddle beat down, previously known as broken) minis are way more useful than daydreams right now. I'm pretty excited to pick up the dreamer again... although i'm Levi has had my attention more recently. The funny thing about daydreams is that you don't even care if you manage to get your trigger off with chompy now if you do his little mini jump into combat as you just compainion the dreamer with them and jaunt up to punch a mini in the face and then say "TA!" as the daydreams drag him back out of range and turn him back into the dreamer in your little stitched triangle.

yup, not what I would have done. But not the complete destruction it could have been. I think the minions are still way over the top better than the other factions in terms of lelu/lillitu and the stitched so I would expect the dreamer to still do well. Complete change in play style, but I can finally play the dreamer again. NB are still kind of ridiculous as a faction, but I hope to be able to convince some people to play that had been "malifaux is unbalanced" people in the past.

Yep, totally missed that as I thought it was resolved as well. That's... An interesting ruling, and makes the dreamer way more ridiculous.

wow...why? so that seems like an obvious place to start but I suppose there might be a reason not to because... yeah i dunno so this changed? http://www.wyrd-games.net/archive/index.php/t-20897.html

agreed that he has by far the best minions in the game as a NB... but Cuddling him to deal with that problem is silly as it will still exist for the other NB and will make him stupid once you fix the minions. If you take away his boomerang (which admittedly has not been explicated as to how it would be eliminated yet) what exactly does he still have as movement shenanigans?!? I call bogus as there are many movement shenanigans in multiple factions. based on? Pandora is freaking crazy hard to kill as she squirts away with a single failed WP duel. Also I never asserted that he needed to be "free from retribution" thats silly, but retreating a ways so that you can't easily target around a ghost in malifaux IS or he is ridiculously easier to kill than Pandora or most of the other masters. skillful? we are not talking about trigonometry here. Standing next to a stitched just means you have to be positioned so that the stitched is outside of range and the dreamer is... what is even difficult about that unless you have three stitched sitting there. (which is how I would end up running the crew the majority of the time with this cuddle). I would be very surprised if this was still the case as I stopped playing them that way in the middle of the last local league we had. Please correct me if i'm wrong. This seems like a MUCH easier place to start with toning down the dreamer if I am. okie dokie... we can just disagree there and i'm okay with that. ---------- Post added at 10:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:40 PM ---------- True, true, true, and true in my opinion anyhow... and i'm becoming more convinced the solution is one or no daydreams able to be hired as it would be a significant cost to the boomerang in soul stones and actions.

quite a bit in my opinion. YMMV I think it is more fun to play with models that are able to move around quite a bit. I actually enjoyed the challenge of playing against book 1 pandora as you described her and enjoy playing against the dreamer but for the sake of others advocate for a change. yup, I agree that Pandora was an unpleasant play experience for most people in a similar way. I would also agree here. Nope, totally disagree that this would be a roughly equivalent drop in power. This would be an assassination of Dreamer as envisioned and playability in my opinion. You are ignoring the fact that the dreamer and Chompy are nowhere near as resilient and difficult to kill as pandora without the protection of being able to withdraw. The dreamer as described in the fluff and as can be seen in ability design bounces around with the use of his daydreams. Bump in the night would not exist without this being true as a scheme. --- This solitare game you are talking about also goes away with the minimizing the number of daydreams available proposal without killing the nature of the crew and the fluff. A major part of the problem with Chompy is that he has use soulstone and the dreamer crew has a high soul stone cache, this is mitigated by the need to use soulstones to summon daydreams and the ability to reach out and kill something and return turn one is also dealt with. MOST crews can reach out and kill something with relative impunity on turn two and this would easily and simply bring the dreamer crew back to that level and be fun without making even dedicated "fluff" dreamer players sad they picked up the now "tyranided" crew without the hope of a new edition. Oh come on... seriously? you do realize that's insane right? dreamer is super squishy. 3 wounds and it doesn't take much to get him targeted, even with ghost in malifaux. Even if that did do something for you, that daydream is toast. I don't mean this to be nasty, and please take it as the honest inquiry it is. Have you actually played the dreamer? --- The dreamer can absolutely do it better, but I stand by my statement that other crews can do similar things (just not on turn one). I would be surprised if other people didn't jump in and indicate how if that should it be necessary for this discussion, but I don't think it should be because other crews can clearly maintain relative safety for their masters and kill models. You are entitled to, and I respect, your opinion. I value your thought out and explicated reasoning. I just don't agree with it and feel there is a simpler answer that is effective while maintaining complexity and fun.

If you brought the level of the dreamer down to those of the book one masters you would be significantly over shooting your cuddle in my opinion. I suppose I'd still play the dreamer now and again (likely more than I will if he doesn't get changes) but I'd be sad if those were the changes a la rathnard. Why exactly does the possibility of a boomerang have to be eliminated? If you can only hire one or no daydreams doesn't this have a similar effect with a simpler fix? And can't other crews (collette and kirai for instance) do similar things? Do you realize how easy it is to not get the all done trigger now? Or how screwed you can be if you don't get it?

I would buy that but ideally for me it would keep track of wounds/conditions and if they have activated yet this turn.

Nope. Usually yes Nope Nope, but they are both pretty useful, especially Ashes and Dust in my opinion Dead Rider is pretty good by himself and he gives Levi mobility with his drag along attack. Levi can take out most models in the game in one activation and 10 inches is a long way for Levi to be moved in order to get in range to do so. YMMV Sounds good... I'm trying things out myself...I am pretty impressed with trying to match Levi's crew to the schemes and strategies right now. If and when I come up with things that prove to work i'll try and mention them. Your milage will certainly vary. Try it out both ways. I think you could make it work either way or with a mix. Have a use for everything and multiple synergies if you can manage it. Yeah... read book 3

While it does not need them, I believe that gameplay is significantly enhanced with the recommended amount of terrain and a variety of elevations and types of terrain. You do not need a building with stairs and windows etc... but it is nice...The ruleset allows for you to use all kinds of terrain.

hmm yeah no I approve of this plan. I actually think that sounds almost ideal. As you showed movement can be extremely key and sight lines SHOULD be an ENOURMOUS advantage for long range models. YMMV

I dunno... it seems like it worked really well from my perspective. Couple of extremely minor questions that should not be viewed as criticism please: Did you rule that Lilith could stab through the floor without line of sight with hard cover or something? or just that they were in range so could be targeted? When Von Shill could not get away how could he then charge? Thanks very much for the game report. I enjoyed it a lot and contrary to your advice I feel motivated to put some modular sections of Terraclips together for my next trip to the game store. I feel like Malifaux is a much different (and in my opinion far better) game with not only the recommended amount of terrain but multiple levels/shooting lanes that bring ranged shots and different movement (i.e. coppelious floating/lilith swaping places etc). I may have misunderstood your point here after re reading it all. Did you mean that you shouldn't put a whole board together with terraclips and bring it in constructed? I'm not sure I get it.

Not to completely derail the thread but we were just talking on thursday about how many times you end up killing children in Malifaux... we found it humorous. To reiterate what several people have been saying: The dreamers ability to reach out and hit something first turn isn't the biggest part of the problem. Several crews can do that (although arguably not as well in most cases) but none have the ability to do so and get away. The ability to drop his crew down in addition is also a big issue... but really only for a crew or two...(i'm looking at you levi)

While I think there are a bunch of ways to go with Levi I would really like to know what wasn't working for you with SPA/DE/A&D. I find him to be pretty amazing with those right now (except for the dreamer I kill Levi and his hollow waif dead first turn silliness). Are there specific schemes/strategies that are giving you trouble? or crews? or what?

so... If you use a nurse, or rusty alice, to give a necro punk reactivate you have a range of at least (7+4+4+7=22inches) and then have 2 general actions with which to do attacks or get closer with. If they have a sorrow with her you are almost certain to get the little fella dead by Pandora first turn. Am I missing something? is there an even better way?

Thanks for the game! sounds like a few more people will show up next week. I'll plan on being there even if you can't and if nothing else perhaps i'll get a game in with Arnie. I plan on having a resser crew together by then. i want to get my Levi crew painted up before I play them again. Also I think you'd mentioned you hand did that 50mm base you were going to put water effects on for... I forget what. Did you had do that from greenstuff? or was it something you got from somewhere? Annnnd last but not least I was a big huge cheater in that I combined Ashes and Dust after it had been split by lady J that turn which is a big no no. I'll keep that in mind for next time. I also need to keep in mind the auras that the A&D, DE, and SPAs all have next time I play that crew. Let me know if you won't be there. I'm brining my fiance so i'll likely help her play a game with someone else knew if you are not around. We could come out to the east side and get a game or two in if you are burned out on moving and want a game as well.

Herp... Of course it can't. I'm silly. Anyhow it was pretty ridiculous otherwise. I'll have to apologize to A-Mo for being a big cheater like that.